Jonny's guest today is a 52 time Springbok international - Joe van Niekerk. Having served as a professional adversary to Jonny for many years, Joe has become an immense team mate and friend to Jonny. And in this interview, their mutual respect and trust really shows. In this podcast Jonny and Joe cover all the "real stuff" post their rugby careers, exploring what did and didn't worked for them in those rugby days, what they now see as important, as well as the more conscious understanding they now both possess for the roles they played in it all. Expect some fascinating locker room chat in here as Joe happily gives away the secret to his legendary captain team talks and offers his take on why they end up feeling isolated at points. Jonny's solo episode this week digs a little further into some of the core themes of the episode, so give it a listen if you're interested in taking things a littles deeper. You can find out more about Joe and his new life and work with Rama Organica here: @junglejoe333 on instagram https://junglejoe333.com/ https://ramaorganica.com/ If you’re a fan of Jonny’s you can also follow him on socials: Twitter: @JonnyWilkinson Instagram: @jonnywilkinsonofficial