You know pyramid thinking; it’s the pervasive mindset that compels us to ask, “Who’s up? Who’s down? Who’s in? Who’s out? Who wins? Who loses?” But thinking about power and its flow between people in those terms means missing out on other skills. Pyramid thinking says, “If you’re not spinning around the winning-or-losing hamster wheel, then you’re doing nothing”—when in reality, blowing up that binary lets us focus on learning, playing, and building. What’s the shape of that model? Author and former U.S. ambassador Matthew Barzun sees it as a constellation, where everyone is both distinctly themselves and part of something greater. If pyramids symbolize top-down-ness and control, then constellations symbolize interdependence and co-creation. In this episode, we talk to Matthew about his new book, The Power of Giving Away Power, a key leadership thinker lost in time, and reimagining Teddy Roosevelt’s “arena.”

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