42: Leading From Trust (ft. Cynthia Savard Saucier)

FromFinding Our Way

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42: Leading From Trust (ft. Cynthia Savard Saucier)

FromFinding Our Way

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Length:

53 minutes

Released:

Feb 23, 2024

Format:

Podcast episode

Description

Peter and Jesse are joined by Cynthia Savard Saucier, co-author of the book Tragic Design and VP of UX for the Canadian e-commerce giant Shopify. We talk about what's worth fighting for and what's not, sharpening the business acumen of her teams, and the strategic value of kindness.

Released:

Feb 23, 2024

Format:

Podcast episode

Titles in the series (46)

UX design pioneers and Adaptive Path co-founders Peter Merholz and Jesse James Garrett discuss the evolving challenges and opportunities for design leaders.

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6: Defining Your Charter, Part 2: The How: In which we break down the components of a team charter, and the ways it helps design leaders, particularly with people matters of recruiting, hiring, and retention. by Finding Our Way
31 min listen
8: Consultancy Rat Blues, Part 1: In which an email from a design leader self-labelled "Consultancy Rat" spurs a wide-ranging discussion on strategic design leadership, product management, and the differences between in-house and consultancy design. Topics: consulting vs in-house design; FAANG+; the bifurcation of UX design; product design; design as a handmaiden to engineering; why not both?; product management and product strategy; product management as UX practice from 15 years ago; the craft of product management; making the shift from consultancy to in-house; strategic and principal in-house design roles. by Finding Our Way
32 min listen
4: Management Leadership Jazz: In which reflections on the coronavirus pandemic spark a freeform conversation ranging from Trump to Jobs on management, leadership, power, uncertainty, and more. by Finding Our Way
33 min listen
3: Range and Craft: In which a discussion of David Epstein's book Range leads to a consideration of craft, practice, and the medium of leadership. by Finding Our Way
37 min listen
2: Elements Turns 20: In which we learn more of Peter's recent adventures in design leadership, and we reflect on 20 years of Jesse's Elements of User Experience. by Finding Our Way
36 min listen
1: The Story So Far: In which we learn a little of Peter and Jesse, their past history together, and their more recent history apart. by Finding Our Way
34 min listen
7: Leading From Home: In which we discuss the challenges of relationship management when leading from home, and then start a potentially promising discussion on the subject of trust. by Finding Our Way
34 min listen
15: Mailbag—Funding models; from output to impact; personal safety and security: In which Jesse and Peter answer questions on funding models, shifting from output to impact, demonstrating value, and the challenges of being a design leader right now. Questions addressed: (01:00) "How does a good business fund design activity?" (09:28) "How can one handle being a good lead designer, when in the company where you work, the majority of product owners don't understand their role." (12:43) "[How can] design influence their orgs to move from an artifact/output-based model of design to a practice/impact one?" (16:40) "How [can] a design team better frame their unique value inside an organization that is crowded out by engineering voices and investment. How can I articulate the value that the design team creates as being as critical as sound software engineering?" (26:34) "How can I help my team feel secure and supported when my own world is adrift on stormy seas," and "How to by Finding Our Way
43 min listen
10: We Have Trust Issues: In which we grapple with the multifarious concept of trust, in light of how important it is for leaders to establish, build, and maintain it in their relationships. Topics: Leadership coaching, psychological safety, resilience, conditions leading to trust, Michael Jordan's uncompassionate leadership tactics, critique, bestowed authority, Brené Brown, non-judgment, leaders speak last, "being right" behavior, earning trust, maintaining positivity and authenticity in the face of difficulties; integrity; whether organizations can earn trust; trust falls; Amy Edmondson; Google's Project Aristotle; accountability; trust as an emergent property; why all these models and theorists never mention trust; trust within a team; trust between teams; trust as an integument that enables cross-functional teams to collaborate; Drive by Daniel Pink; operationalizing trust is like eating soup with chopsticks or trying to capture a candle flame. by Finding Our Way
40 min listen
5: Defining Your Charter, Part 1: The Why: In which we look at the purpose behind defining purpose, and discover some unexpectedly useful new frames along the way. by Finding Our Way
34 min listen
11: The Leadership Plateau and the Marketing Vortex: In which we address the how to grow as a design leader when the opportunities thin out, and then take a hard turn and address the culture of marketing and the problems it poses for designers. Topics: Imbalance of leaders at different levels; don't determine what's interesting for someone else; the pace of career growth; designers who have found their way; discouraging people from desiring to be a leader because doing it right is fucking hard; dual-track leadership models; UX for marketing and product used to be the same; marketing design wants to work more like product design; brand beyond design; service design; marketing, as it's commonly practiced, is bullshit; #notallmarketers; product marketing; data-driven marketing; functions have distinct cultures that cross-functional teams don't address; Jesse's hair. by Finding Our Way
37 min listen
12: Ands Not Ors (ft. Maria Giudice): In which we are joined by Maria Giudice, founder of Hot Studio, former design executive at Facebook and Autodesk, for a whirlwind discussion of her career, design leadership, and coaching. Topics: Frank Frazetta; Working Girl; art school; white designer dudes; New York in the mid-80s; Richard Saul Wurman telling us we're all full of shit; designing guidebooks; command-and-control leadership style; San Francisco in the late 80s; becoming a design leader; hiring misfits; match between leader and the team; inheriting teams; the brutality of corporate America; learning from mistakes; change-making at scale; consulting vs in-house; the need for executive sponsorship; where we find joy in our lives; meaning and purpose in our work; leading and coaching in a fashion authentic to you; the value of coaching for senior leaders. by Finding Our Way
39 min listen
9: Consultancy Rat Blues, Part 2: In which we continue to grapple with in-house vs design consultancy distinctions, and see promise in the creation of senior strategic design roles within some companies. Topics: working in teams; working like a consultancy; Metropolis; the lie of design schools; the reality of in-house design practice; cycles of abuse; working in truly high-performance design contexts; the stage model of cook apprenticeship; the capacity of design programs; rotation programs within and across companies; the emerging role of Principal Designer. by Finding Our Way
27 min listen
23–Make UX truly human-centered by addressing trauma, power, and other necessary and uncomfortable realities (ft. Vivianne Castillo): In which Peter and Jesse speak with UX researcher, educator, and humanity advocate Vivianne Castillo about what it takes to be truly human-centered, the necessity of addressing trauma, what UX can learn from human services professionals, and practices and rituals you and your teams can adopt. by Finding Our Way
55 min listen
25—The Reckoning: In which Peter and Jesse take stock of emerging themes from prior conversations, trying to make sense of the crucial challenges of design and design leadership. This will be the last episode for a while, probably until autumn. Please stay in touch! by Finding Our Way
45 min listen
14: “If your team’s work isn’t good, you didn’t set clear expectations,” and other Design Leadership Truisms: In which Peter shares some of his Design Leadership Truisms (inspired by the work of Jenny Holzer), and Jesse reacts. Truisms discussed: (03:29) “People are not their job titles.” (04:50) "If your team's work isn't good, you didn't set clear expectations." (08:32) “Bad design is a result of context, not individual aptitude.” (09:14) “If you focus on the organization, quality will take care of itself.” (17:11) “You cannot calculate an ROI for design.” (20:01) “If you haven't pissed someone off, you are not doing your job right.” (24:19) “For someone who talks a lot about empathy. You show little for your colleagues.” (26:55) “Introversion inhibits design's ultimate impact.” by Finding Our Way
34 min listen
19 – Growth mindsets, vulnerability, sociopathy, totalitarianism… that escalated quickly (ft. Billie Mandel): In which Peter and Jesse speak with Billie Mandel, design leader, team coach, and UX educator, and we somehow get from team dynamics to leadership qualities of vulnerability to sociopathy to totalitarianism in surprisingly short order. by Finding Our Way
44 min listen
28: The Leadership Ceiling (ft. Tim Kieschnick): In this episode, Jesse and Peter talk to Tim Kieschnick, who established the UX practice at healthcare giant Kaiser Permanente, and then went on to spearhead human-centered design in the organization, about his illuminating framework he calls The Leadership Ceiling, the importance of playing politics, how to start a movement, and what it was like to work for a single company for 30 years(!). by Finding Our Way
63 min listen
17 – Design leadership lessons from bicycling (ft. Sally Carson): In which Peter and Jesse talk to Sally Carson, Head of Product Design at Duo Security (now part of Cisco), about her journey, from bike messenger to multimedia designer to design lead. Along the way, we discuss executive relationships, handling burnout and managing your energy, and how her experience cycling prepared her for the ups and downs of leadership. by Finding Our Way
47 min listen
13: Facing Systemic Racism in Design: In which Jesse and Peter discuss their relationship to systemic racism, as individuals, as leaders, and as members of the design and UX communities. by Finding Our Way
41 min listen
16 – How can a designer grow in their career without becoming a manager? (and more): Jesse and Peter return from their hiatus and dig into a few emerging trends we've seen in product design teams, including (00:25) the rise of the senior individual contributor, (13:44) the increasingly tangled relationship between design, engineering, and product management, and (35:37) what it takes to lay the foundation for lasting change. by Finding Our Way
47 min listen
24: Delving into digital design—craft, teaching, lessons from architecture, standards and certification (ft. Jorge Arango): In which Peter and Jesse chat with Jorge Arango about the state of digital design, his background in architecture, teaching the next generation of designers, the seduction of prototyping, the potential advantages and drawbacks of certification, and more. by Finding Our Way
48 min listen
26: Chief Design Officers and Design Executive Effectiveness (ft. Gordon Ching): In which Peter and Jesse chat with Gordon Ching about the emerging role of the Chief Design Officer, design executive effectiveness, the power of brand, the importance of taste, and other matters. by Finding Our Way
55 min listen
27: Choose Yourself—Making up your career path as you go (ft. Abby Covert): In which Peter and Jesse are joined by information architect and author Abby Covert, who shares her story of moving from independent consultant, to Etsy's staff information architect, to product manager, and then independent writer and teacher. She shares what she learned along the way about burnout and work-life balance, and gives us a peek at her forthcoming book on the power of diagrams as tools for thinking. Find more about Abby at http://abbycovert.com, and read "I Choose Me," the post that inspired this episode. Learn more about Jesse's coaching practice at http://jessejamesgarrett.com/ Peter occasionally writes about design orgs and leadership at http://petermerholz.com/ by Finding Our Way
59 min listen
29: Listening with Intent (ft. Indi Young): In this episode, Jesse and Peter speak with their friend and former colleague Indi Young on the eve of the release of her forthcoming book, Time to Listen. The conversation ranges from our time together, to how she approaches her work, her focus on listening deeply to each other, and her passion for matters of equity and inclusion. by Finding Our Way
55 min listen
20—The business model is the new grid, and other mindbombs (ft. Erika Hall): In which Peter and Jesse talk to strategic design and research consultant Erika Hall of Mule Design, learn about how "the business model is the new grid," why most design is simply just styling, and the importance of asking questions. by Finding Our Way
44 min listen
37: From Design Leadership to Product Leadership (ft. Che Douglas): In this episode, Peter and Jesse speak with Che Douglas, who has shifted from VP of Design to VP of Product for Booking.com, the world's leading travel website. Che talks about the cultural and functional relationship between product and design, what it's like to lead both as an integrated team, and the necessity of driving alignment in order to drive change as a leader. by Finding Our Way
58 min listen
21—Creativity, banishing inner critics, impostor syndrome, and systemic racism (ft Denise Jacobs): In which Peter and Jesse talk to creativity consultant and author (and former front-end developer!) Denise Jacobs about just what is creativity, how to maintain being creative as a leader, banishing your inner critic, taking charge in how you get feedback, and how impostor syndrome is probably a means of keeping historically disadvantaged groups down. by Finding Our Way
36 min listen
22: “Right problem, right solution, done right”—The Vanguard of User Research (ft. Jen Cardello): In which Peter and Jesse talk to Jen Cardello, head of UX Research at Fidelity Investments, about her team's uncommon organization structure (within an independent insights team, peered with Market Research, Analytics, and Behavioral Economics), and the tools they use to make sure they're focused on the right problem, with the right solution, done right. by Finding Our Way
49 min listen
18: How Agile and Scrum ruined product management, and other things (ft. Melissa Perri): Product management consultant and educator Melissa Perri joins Peter and Jesse to talk about the view of design from the product management side of the table, the true value that product managers bring to the process, and how designers can collaborate more effectively with their peers in product management. (Apologies for the suboptimal audio, we found you get used to it pretty quickly, and the content was too rich to not share with you!) Learn more about Melissa at http://melissaperri.com/ by Finding Our Way
41 min listen

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41: Leading Experience Design for the Military (ft. Colt Whittall): In this episode, "mission critical" takes on a whole new meaning when you're the Chief Experience Officer for the United States Air Force. The first person to take on that role, Colt Whittall, joins us to talk about getting things done when you have more influence than authority, finding meaning and purpose in government service, and taking risks in an environment where failure is not an option. by Finding Our Way
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40: The Cross-Trained Design Leader (ft. Rajat Shail): Hardware design, software design, package design, experience design. Rajat Shail oversees all of it for home automation company Vivint. Rajat joins us to share what he's learned about managing design as a holistic function, the benefits and pitfalls of using design thinking training to engage executives, and what to do when your mandate is broader than your boss's. by Finding Our Way
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38: The Craft-led Design Executive (ft. Tim Allen): n this episode, Peter and Jesse speak with Tim Allen, Global Head of Design and Research for Instacart, about his craft-forward approach to design leadership, how psychological safety enables innovation, partnering with strong operations leaders, and how growing up Black in Japan proved formative in his lifelong advocacy for inclusion in design. by Finding Our Way
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37: From Design Leadership to Product Leadership (ft. Che Douglas): In this episode, Peter and Jesse speak with Che Douglas, who has shifted from VP of Design to VP of Product for Booking.com, the world's leading travel website. Che talks about the cultural and functional relationship between product and design, what it's like to lead both as an integrated team, and the necessity of driving alignment in order to drive change as a leader. by Finding Our Way
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36: The Chief Design Officer as Corporate Executive (ft. Jehad Affoneh): In this episode, Peter and Jesse speak with Jehad Affoneh, Chief Design Officer of Toast, on topics ranging from the what it means to be an executive, how accountability is shared across functions, the importance of aiming metrics at organizational maturity, developing an experience strategy, working with Founder-CEOs, and the differences in working B2B and B2C. by Finding Our Way
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35—The Actualized Design Executive (ft. Daniela Jorge): In this episode, Peter and Jesse speak with Daniela Jorge, Chief Design Officer at PayPal, about vision, delivering on an end-to-end customer experience, growing and developing the next generation of leaders, taking advantage of design skills such as facilitation, and what she's learned from working in more traditional companies. by Finding Our Way
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34: Design leadership to support organizational transformation (ft. Rachel Kobetz): In this episode, Jesse and Peter speak with Rachel Kobetz, Global Head of Design for Expedia Group, about how at the core of her role is organizational transformation, how intentionality is at the core of every action, and the importance of relationship and communications in all directions. by Finding Our Way
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33: Leading Design in a Product World (ft. Greg Petroff): In this episode, Jesse and Peter are joined by Greg Petroff, Chief Design Officer at Cisco Secure, and former design executive at GE, ServiceNow, and Compass, who shares with us his experiences in elevating Design's voice in the product development process, the importance of partnership, relationship, and communication, and why he's hopeful for Design continued influence and impact. by Finding Our Way
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32: The Intentional Design Executive (ft. Kaaren Hanson): Kaaren Hanson, Chief Design Officer at Chase Bank, joins Peter and Jesse to discuss her approach to being a design executive, including what components need to be in place for success, how she coaches her teams, what she's learned to do (and not do), and how she navigates idealism and pragmatism. by Finding Our Way
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31: Sustaining yourself as a design executive (ft. Katrina Alcorn, GM IBM Design): In this episode, Katrina Alcorn, General Manager for IBM Design, joins Peter and Jesse to uncover various aspects of being a design executive, including where to spend your time and energy, how to maintain culture and cohesion at scale, and the importance of showing compassion for yourself. by Finding Our Way
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30— Mailbag: UX maturity, conflict fatigue, and getting past imposter syndrome: (This is our last episode for a couple months. Talk to you in August!) In this episode, Jesse and Peter field questions from listeners, which lead to a range of discussions, including leading in immature organizations, the power of playing politics, overcoming imposter syndrome, and developing a self-reflective leadership practice. by Finding Our Way
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44 min listen
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42: Leading From Trust (ft. Cynthia Savard Saucier)

42: Leading From Trust (ft. Cynthia Savard Saucier)

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