“The idea that in any sense I planned my career is completely wrong.” Lord Gus O’Donnell’s long career in the civil service started in 1979 in the Treasury and included stints as a diplomat in Washington, press secretary to prime minister John Major and Cabinet Secretary, head of the civil service and permanent secretary of the Cabinet Office under three prime ministers – Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Cameron. In this episode he discusses what it was like to work with four very different leaders, at very different points in their premierships, and with very different styles. He also reflects on his own leadership development, how he remained calm in a crisis and why he regrets feeling irreplaceable. There are plenty of insights on the civil service too – with comparisons between the private sector, his drive to instil pride and why he always told people that if they want to get on, they should get out, get different experiences... and then come back.