“You should never pick me for any job which is business as usual… I am my best or worst, depending on your point of view, when dealing with change.” From helping to establish the UK Department for International Development (DfID) after its separation from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to managing a prisons crisis as justice department permanent secretary, Suma Chakrabarti has never been afraid to take on big, complex challenges. Quite the opposite – the opportunity to create change is, he says, what energises him. In this episode, Suma reflects on his long career in the UK civil service – which also included stints in the Cabinet Office and Treasury – and his time as president of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Discussing his decision to leave the civil service because he was at loggerheads with the minister, why he thinks the merger of DfID and the Foreign Office is a mistake, the future of work, his advice to ambitious civil servants, and much more besides, Suma reveals himself as a bold, astute, and empathetic leader with a truckload of lessons to share.