Once upon a time, testing was about creating the right documentation, making sure requirements were correct, be the quality police, and tell everybody else to do their job well. Lagter, we focused on specific testing, diving in to find defects and problems, and act like an insurance policy so that if there's a problem, we find it, but stop telling people how to do their jobs. Have we gone too far from that original focus? Is it possible for us to give generalized observations about the quality of the software we are delivering? How would we do it? To answer those questions, Rachel Kibler and Chris Kenst join Matthew Heusser and Michael Larsen to discuss where testing and quality interact and make a case as to which is more important and at which point in time.