Conversations on Managing Media

By Darren Woolley

At TrinityP3 we are inspired by the power of marketing to change cultures, change behaviours, change perceptions – to change the world. But too often, the potential of marketing goes unrealised due to confused objectives, a shortage of resources, and a thousand other obstacles.

The previous book was a collection of conversations on how to manage the marketing process to achieve the full potential that marketing delivers. The idea was to have the kinds of conversations that we rarely get the time to have, about the possibilities offered by marketing, and the many challenges facing marketing.

This edition are conversations on the challenges facing, what is often the largest single marketing investment, managing media planning and buying.

The popularity of the Conversation books, and the Managing Marketing podcast, is testament to the quality of the conversations we are having. Rather than a session being treated as an interview, based on a series of questions, the discussion starts and then flows around topic of interest to the guest.

These conversations celebrate those marketers and advertising professionals who contribute to making marketing and media great.


Conversations on Managing Media:
- Chloe Hooper on the good, the bad and the ugly of media agency pitches
- Brian Wieser on marketing, media investors and the economy, stupid
- David Angell on the role and challenges facing media agencies
- Simon Canning on the dramatic changes in the advertising industry
- Dominic Powers on increasing transparency in programmatic media
- Nicole Sheffield on the murky digital media supply chain
- Mat Baxter on the expanding role of media agencies in marketing
- Chris Stephenson on innovation and effectiveness in marketing
- Doug Pearce on the changing world of media in China
- Simon Larcey on how programmatic can be used for good
- Jane Ratcliffe on the value of measuring media expenditure
- Augustine Fou on the growing problem of ad fraud

• Language: English
• Publisher: BookBaby
• Release date: Mar 22, 2021
• ISBN: 9781922565143

Book preview

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INTRODUCTION

When I made the leap all those years ago from medical science into advertising, I quickly identified media planning and buying as an essential component of the advertising process. What was the purpose of the message I was crafting as a copywriter if it did not appear in the right media, directed to the right audience, at the right time, in the right environment? Content and channel need to work hand in hand. One is not more important than the other.

At TrinityP3 over the past two decades, we have witnessed the major changes and challenges that have presented themselves to the media industry. Technology and the digitisation of media have led to a significant increase in channels and media options. At the same time, advertising budgets have faced significant downward pressures, and in many cases they have been reduced in real terms.

So in mid-2015, when I was considering starting the Managing Marketing podcast, it was natural – in fact, it was essential – for media to play a significant part in the discussions. The idea was to have the kinds of conversations that we rarely get the time to have, about the possibilities offered by smart media strategy, and the many challenges facing media owners, advertisers and their agencies today.

To achieve this, I wanted to basically spend some time with experts, thought-leaders and practitioners, to talk, chat and converse about what they were doing, working on or thinking. Previously, I had been asked to be on a few podcasts that were recorded over the internet, but I never actually felt these were full conversations, as you couldn’t really interact or engage with the other party. So my preference was to sit down with my guest and record the conversation face to face.

The popularity of the Managing Marketing podcast, which you can follow on SoundCloud¹ or Spotify³, Stitcher⁴ and TuneIn⁵, is testament to the quality of the conversations we are having. Rather than a session being treated as an interview, based on a series of questions, the discussion starts and then flows around topics of interest to the guest.

And why the unanswered question at the end of most of the talks? Some people find it annoying, as the podcast ends abruptly and leaves them hanging. But the unresolved question evokes a chat between any two friends – the conversation will go on and on, and you are free to speculate on what the answer to the question may be.

With more than 180 conversations recorded and published, this book is literally a compendium of the best, most popular chats on media strategy, planning and buying. It covers topics from pitching, the changing role of media agencies and transparency to ad fraud and programmatic trading.

In acknowledging how this series has been made possible, I first want to thank everyone who has graciously and generously given their time to record a podcast episode – thank you thought-leaders, professionals and practitioners of media, marketing and communications.

Regarding this book, I want to thank Penny Voigt of Your Virtual Assistant for managing the transcription of more than 70,000 words. Thanks also to Paul Smitz for editing and proofing to bring the conversations to the written word in a compelling and engaging way. And thank you to Sheng Wang for the layout, finished art and design to make the book look great, and to our printer, 17print, for committing our thoughts and insights to ink on paper.

Of course, this book required the podcasts in the first place, and so thank you to Jared Lattouf of JML Audio for all of the editing, mixing, sweetening and support in managing all of the episodes since day one. Thanks also to Mike Morgan and the team at High Profile Enterprises for managing the SEO and social sharing of the podcast episodes through the TrinityP3 blog.

If you are interested in being a guest on Managing Marketing, or you know someone who would make an excellent guest, please let me know. Tell me who and where you are and what you want to talk about.

Thank you.

Darren Woolley, founder and Global CEO

TrinityP3 Marketing Management Consultants

Footnotes

1soundcloud.com/managing-marketing

3open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW

4stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing

5tunein.com/podcasts/Business--Economics-Podcasts/Managing-Marketing-p1275737

CONVERSATION ONE

Chloe Hooper and Darren chat about the good, the bad and the ugly of media agency pitches

When we had this conversation, Chloe Hooper ¹ was the National New Business and Marketing Director at media agency PHD. In March 2020, at the start of the global pandemic, she was promoted to Head of Growth and Marketing for the APAC (Asia-Pacific) region. I was first drawn to wanting to talk with Chloe after reading her article in AdNews titled ‘RIP to the Pitch Process?’ ², in which she challenged some of the conventional pitch practices in the marketplace. She agreed to appear on the podcast and we found ourselves having a wide-ranging and engaging conversation based on her deeply considered agency perspective on best-practice pitching, worst-practice pitching, and how pitching can be improved to deliver better outcomes for marketers and advertisers.

The conversation

Darren:

Welcome to Managing Marketing. Today I’m chatting with Chloe Hooper, who’s the National New Business and Marketing Director of PHD. Welcome Chloe.

Chloe:

Hello, how are you?

Darren:

I’m very well. The reason you are sitting here is because of that opinion piece you wrote in AdNews. I don’t think you quite said you were bitching about pitching, but you certainly had some very clear thoughts on pitching.

Chloe:

Yeah, I’ve been doing this for a few years now and I’ve experienced a lot of different pitches, some good, some bad, and I just felt the need to put my opinion out there and say what I currently think the state of play is.

Darren:

Look, I think that is really refreshing. And I would encourage it because often as pitch consultants, we hear that agencies will give feedback but they don’t want to be quoted on it and things like that. But pitching is a two-party process. You need to understand the impact it is having on agencies as well as the impact on marketers.

Chloe:

Yeah, I think there has been a massive call from all agencies actually, maybe not publicly and as you say putting your name to it, but I do think there is massive fatigue within the whole agency realm. There’s a call to change the way that pitches are currently being run, and so we might be the one who puts their name to it, but I do think it’s a global thing.

Darren:

And do we have to have a disclaimer now that this is Chloe Hooper’s personal opinion?

Chloe:

Absolutely. I think we should definitely put that out there. It is one of those things that everyone has a different opinion on how things should be run and what works and what doesn’t. I’ve had a few conversations leading up to this podcast with different people and that’s apparent even there within PHD. Everyone’s got their, ‘This is how I’d like it to be done’, and that’s why there’s no universal answer at the moment. I do think it is something that needs investigating, on what is best practice.

New business development is more than pitching

Darren:

You know, from our perspective, the best new business win is one the agency doesn’t have to pitch for. Would you agree with that?

Chloe:

I certainly do agree with that. I think that pitching takes up a lot of resources. It’s like an extreme sport. You’ve got to be in it to win it. Winning new business without a pitch is an ideal scenario, though it’s maybe not the fairest way of doing things. I think that it’s really important to ensure that if you are pitching for something, you are prospecting for something you actually do want to go after.

And that’s how you sometimes can win without the pitch process, and also if you are the incumbent. If you are the incumbent agency, it is always nice to have the opportunity to not go to pitch and maybe just resolve issues internally.

Darren:

I think that’s probably a fair observation, because we find that incumbents are always in a very difficult position in that they’re trying to address any perceived problems. And at the same time they’re trying to compete against the ‘shiny new’ that’s being offered by the new agencies that have none of the heritage or baggage that’s come from working with that client.

Chloe:

You probably know this from your experience, but if you’re the incumbent, you’ve got an opportunity to show off all your shiny new toys. But also you are in a position where it’s kind of like, well, ‘Why wasn’t this being done before?’, so it’s kind of creating that balance.

Darren:

It’s a double-edged sword, isn’t it.

Chloe:

Yeah.

Darren:

It’s so difficult. That’s one of the reasons we try and level the playing field, because it is hard for the incumbent. Also where a client draws an incumbent into a pitch when they have no intention of appointing them again. It’s just such a waste, don’t you think?

Chloe:

I do agree, but speaking from previous experience, during my career, we have been in positions like that where we are not the ones to get this, and you can turn it around like refreshed teams and refreshed ways of working. I think as the incumbent you do want the opportunity to have another go. So if there is a situation where you have no chance, you obviously don’t want to be involved, but as the incumbent you do want the opportunity to prove yourself the same way the rest of the market is.

The good and the bad of pitching

Darren:

Now I’m not sure if this is fair, but let’s start with the positives. What makes a good pitch from your perspective? You’re talking from quite a few years of experience both in Australia and the UK. And also, I would imagine, a large number of pitches.

Chloe:

Yeah, I’ve certainly done my fair share of pitches. I’m speaking from my UK experience, and Australia, which as I said earlier, has got quite a different approach to pitching. It depends on what country you are in, just from the cultural point of view. I think what works well in Australian pitches is everyone’s got the mentality of: ‘How can we do our best without sweating the small stuff?’

I think a really strong pitch is actually when the client knows exactly what they are looking for. I think sometimes we go into a new business process and the client’s unsure of what they are really looking for and they’re kind of going to market thinking, ‘Oh, hopefully we’ll see what we like when we get there’.

I think the best pitches are when the client is really sure. They can articulate that really well and the agency’s got them available to ask the questions and work as a partner with them throughout the process. So I think the best-run pitches are definitely when everyone’s aligned in what success looks like from the outset. I think having a pitch consultant involved in that is crucial, so yeah, that would be a best-case scenario.

Darren:

Often, we’ve had situations and we know of times when marketers are really going to pitch because they’re not sure what they want. They just want to know what else is out there. It’s almost like the old thing with the remote on TV: ‘Yes, this program’s good, but what else is on TV?’ It really can be a huge waste of everyone’s time, can’t it.

Chloe:

Yes, certainly it can be, but I think if the client is invested in what they’re doing, then it’s worthwhile. If they’re just doing it because there are internal pressures and they’ve not got any intention of moving, then it’s not worth it. They’re just out there looking for new ideas and to give their current agency a kick up the bum to say, ‘Come on, you could be up for a pitch here’.

Darren:

Which is weird isn’t it, because we read and hear so much about ‘It’s all about the relationship’, but this is a relationship where if you don’t lift your game, I’m going to dump you and get someone else. Imagine running your personal relationships like that.

Chloe:

I’m just thinking of my personal relationships, if I’m currently doing that.

Darren:

Oh, you’re tough.

Chloe:

I know, my poor partner. I’m trying to think of the best way of framing this because I want to be as polite as possible. I think it is important to invest the time into going into pitching, or asking if you’re not committed to pursuing that further and to creating new relationships with potentially new people.

It might be you love the agency, their way of thinking, but the team you’ve currently got working on that piece of business isn’t right for you, and you do need to give them a kick up the bum to reshape that. It puts a lot of pressure on resource limitations of the agency.

Darren:

In some ways, media can be even more onerous as a pitch because there is so much detail potentially in that process: media strategy, media buying in digital, programmatic, search – so many different elements that can be explored just in media. And as we know, media agencies are doing more than just media.

So what is the commitment to an agency when you get called in to do a pitch?

Chloe:

I think you’re 100% right in what you’re saying. It’s becoming more and more fragmented, and what agencies can offer is becoming more and more diverse. But I think the commitment needs to be from the agency to have a small, core team that can help bring all of that talent and skill set together.

That’s the most important commitment we can make: to make sure we’re delivering something to the client that is outright one answer with a small team, instead of getting the world and their dog involved. In terms of delivering that to the client, we need to make it as simple as possible for them.

Darren:

It is time-consuming for the agency, isn’t it.

Chloe:

Yeah, there are a lot of resources and energy that go into it. It goes back to making sure you’re pitching for stuff that you really, desperately want to win. Is the brand the right culture fit for you? And do you really want to work with them? Are you going to produce that best, award-winning work for them?

If you’re not 100% committed to pitching to win, then you won’t necessarily get the best results and people will get tired. And if you’re going from pitch to pitch to pitch, people get exhausted and they won’t want to carry on pitching. Pitching should be a privilege. It should be something that people in the agency are desperate to work on and really enjoy doing.

Darren:

Not a grind of: ‘Oh, here comes another RFP [request for proposal]. I’ve already sacrificed three weekends this month’.

Chloe:

Exactly.

Deciding to pitch or not to pitch

Darren:

On that basis, how do you evaluate the opportunity? You must do a huge amount of research and background checking on different clients or you have prospects like a wish list. I’m not asking you to give away any of your new business trade secrets, but what are agencies doing and looking for in clients?

Chloe:

I think it’s all around the cultural fit. If you’re good at business development, not new business, you should really have your prospects and be going after them, understanding their business and how they work, before even going to pitch. I think prospecting is really key here, and then if you do have a gem of a client that comes up which wasn’t on your initial list, it’s about evaluating that against: Have they got the same culture and brand values as you? Do you love the work they’re currently doing?

We’ve actually got a score card at PHD of what we will and will not turn down, and we’ve turned down pitching a helluva lot of new business in the last couple of years. Having that key criteria of this is what we’re looking for, and this is who we want to work with, helps you become so much better at pitching. The client doesn’t want to work with you if you’re not the right brand fit for them either. As you said, it’s a partnership.

Darren:

It’s always interesting as a pitch consultant when you phone an agency and before you even ask the question they go, ‘We’ll do it’. Hang on, I haven’t told you who the client is or what category or what’s involved or any of those things. We think it’s important for the agency to ask all those questions. It’s important for an agency to make a business decision, so the only way to make that business decision is to ask the question so you can evaluate whether this is an opportunity that’s worthwhile.

Chloe:

And I think that comes down to confidence, don’t you? It’s having the confidence to hold out for the brands you do want to work with and to say ‘No’ and being strong by that, because you’ve got much more chance of winning the ones you do want to win.

Darren:

A lot of agencies that suffer from a cultural malaise, it’s often because they’ve pitched for a lot of work and they’ve got a low conversion rate. And you find out that the reason they have a low conversion rate is because they’ve pitched for everything that moves.

What you’re saying is absolutely right: if you become more selective and pitch for the things you want and think are a good fit, then you’re more likely to win. Your conversion rate is much higher and the agency is buoyed by the wins and not feeling drained by the losses.

Chloe:

Yeah, exactly.

Pitching is a people business

Darren:

In your new business development role, you’re part of protecting or nurturing the culture of the agency as well.

Chloe:

It’s keeping hold of your talent as well. People always put their best talent on pitches and if you burn those people out you’re going to lose them, so it’s a morale thing to make sure you’re pitching for the things you want to win and you’re all in it together.

Darren:

I’m laughing because the one thing clients say all the time is, ‘We don’t just want their A-team, we want the team that’s going to be working on our business’.

Chloe:

We face the challenge of sometimes you put your most senior people in the room and it will turn around and the client will say, ‘You didn’t win this because we wanted to see the people working in the room’. And another time you’ll lose a pitch based on the fact you put in the people working in the room and they’ll say, ‘Everyone else sent their most senior people but yours couldn’t be bothered showing up’. It’s about balance, knowing what the client really wants. I think working with consultancies does help you understand that.

Darren:

That’s a difficult conversation to have. You know, ‘Who do you want us to bring in, our senior people or the people that are working on the business?’ We point out to clients that there’s a flaw in that, which is believing the agency seems to have an endless supply of resources that will suddenly appear to be able to work on their business should the agency be successful. I mean, if it’s a large piece of business, you could be adding 10, 15, 20 staff. You don’t have those people just sitting around waiting for the next client to walk through the door, do you.

Chloe:

That would be nice, wouldn’t it. I think that Volkswagen’s a really good example. When we won Volkswagen, the transitional period, we actually put a halt on pitching for quite a while to make sure we could truly embed that and had the resources available. I think not going for new business and different things, you can make that talent available and ready in time for the client. When it’s going to the room, you’ve got to be careful with who you’re putting in there.

It’s a big thing, and making sure the people you are putting in are a good fit with other people in the room. You have to make sure you’ve got that balance, as there’s also that issue of diversity. Casting is a really big thing for new business, I think, and it can make or break you because people buy people at the end of the day.

Darren:

Yeah, you are looking at creating a chemistry, a fit, and you are often doing it blind because you can’t really get to understand the client unless you meet with them. Or even the mix of the client. You can certainly ask questions and do a bit of research, but it must be incredibly difficult. It’s a bit hit and miss isn’t it because it’s not a numbers game.

Having said that, some agencies play the numbers game: ‘How many clients will be coming?’, ‘Oh we’ll be five’, ‘Right, we’ll have six people there, one for each client plus