Edward speaks to Prof Michael Norton, outgoing  director of the environment programme at the European Academies Science Advisory Council (EASAC). Mike speaks about the need to understand what 'transformative change' actually is, the gap between science and policy urgency on environmental boundaries and on the flawed concept of GDP. Click here to visit The Future Unrefined, our curated collection of articles and podcasts on raw materials and extraction. Find more podcasts and articles at www.landclimate.org