Much of our medicine is shrouded in myth, and one of the obscure, but persistent figures is that of Bian Que, the bird-headed healer first associated with the use of stone needles.In this conversation with Shelley Ochs we discuss her Ph.D dissertation on this mythic character that adorns ancient tombs, and shows upin imagery that suggests a connection between the heavenly and earthly realms. Chinese medicine’s bird-headed healer is not the first or only image of divine presence that is associated with life, healing and death. Other cultures also have this image in their pantheon of healers and gods. Listen into this discussion of the history and recent academic perspectives of an alternative stream of medicine that intertwined with that of the Nei Jing, but has its own unique roots.