Ecological economics is a field that historically evolved from discourses of people from many disciplines. Finally, ecologists and economists were in dialogue with each other on how to transform the world to respect planetary boundaries. Today’s guest Clive Spash argues, however, that “the importance of social, political, ethical and institutional factors is something which ecologists are not trained to detect, and economists are trained to neglect”. The way forward can only be social ecological economics where the necessity of human behavioural change is not overlooked. With Clive Spash we talk about humans, values, structures, institutions, politics, science and rebellions in social ecological economics.