The second episode of Season 4 joins National Academicians Charles Gaines and Rashid Johnson in conversation about the multiplicities of blackness, the properties of representation, and exploring materiality in art making. They discuss mutual friends, common references, and a substantial reading list. Rashid shares key reference points from his childhood that inform his materials and structures. Charles delves into the nature of the grid, elements of language, and the dynamics of representation. Together they share a mutual appreciation for each other, and the intellectual investigations that underpin their practices.