In episode 38 of The Gradient Podcast, Daniel Bashir speaks to Been Kim.Been is a staff research scientist at Google Brain focused on interpretability–helping humans communicate with complex machine learning models by not only building tools but also studying how humans interact with these systems. She has served with a number of conferences including ICLR, NeurIPS, ICML, and AISTATS. She gave the keynotes at ICLR 2022, ECML 2020, and the G20 meeting in Argentina in 2018. Her work TCAV received the UNESCO Netexplo award, was featured at Google I/O 2019 and in Brian Christian’s book The Alignment Problem.Subscribe to The Gradient Podcast:  Apple Podcasts  | Spotify | Pocket Casts | RSSFollow The Gradient on TwitterOutline:(00:00) Intro(02:20) Path to AI/interpretability(06:10) The Progression of Been’s thinking / PhD thesis(11:30) Towards a Rigorous Science of Interpretable Machine Learning(24:52) Interpretability and Software Testing(27:00) Been’s ICLR Keynote and Human-Machine “Language”(37:30) TCAV(43:30) Mood Board Search and CAV Camera(48:00) TCAV’s Limitations and Follow-up Work(56:00) Acquisition of Chess Knowledge in AlphaZero(1:07:00) Daniel spends a very long time asking “what does it mean to you to be a researcher?”(1:09:00) The everyday drudgery, more lessons from Been(1:11:32) OutroLinks:* Been’s website* CAVcamera app Get full access to The Gradient at thegradientpub.substack.com/subscribe