Nathan Norris and I have been involved in New Urbanism and the Congress for the New Urbanism for more than 25 years. And yet, our backgrounds and path to it couldn’t be more different. Nathan came a military and a legal background, while I came from an architecture and design background. In fact, most New Urbanists were originally like me, and people like Nathan were the outliers.Nathan talks about how he followed his passions, sort of. Basically, things that angered him, led him to future work. Don’t get the wrong idea - Nathan is not an angry guy. But he does describe how he found his way eventually to Placemakers, working in downtown Lafayette, Louisiana, and then back on his own with the City Building Partnership. We talk a lot about the importance of messaging and clear language, implementation of form-based codes, especially the SmartCode, and The Urban Guild among other topics.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe