Calm Before the Storm: The Caldwell Series

By Dan Ryan

Calm Before the storm describes in vivid detail what may have occurred in the United States under the Pierce and Buchanan Presidential administrations. The narration is by a middle-aged career naval officer, born in Beaufort, South Carolina, and serving in the Army Navy Building, Washington City. The historical events of 1855 through 1860 are carefully followed. The imagination of the author provides rich characters in powerful settings from the mountains of the Utah Territory to the port of South Hampton, England. The time old love story between a man and a woman is woven throughout the book when the naval officer falls in love with the President's sister, also a middle-aged woman referred to as the first, First Lady in the White House.
Scenes are carefully set with attention to accurate research of the low country in South Carolina as well as the Nation's Capital circa 1853-1861. The People's Standard History of the United States written by Edward Ellis and published in 1895 have provided background information, maps of the period and needed information on how the federal government was organized and functioned during this period of history.

• Language: English
• Publisher: AuthorHouse
• Release date: Jun 5, 2009
• ISBN: 9781438976341

Dan Ryan

Dan was born and educated in Melbourne in the state of Victoria, Australia. He found his heroes among the writers that he read and studied and found his passion in the countryside in the southeast of the state, among the forests and farms and wildlife, along the rugged coastline, on foot or more often, horseback. His message is that the spiritual world is omnipresent and therefore reachable through time spent with nature and by understanding the myths, symbols and lessons from our own and older civilisations. Dan divides his time between Melbourne and his small farm at Woodside.

Book preview

PRELUDE

Washington City

July, 1860

P resident Buchanan will see you now Admiral Caldwell. He and some of the cabinet members are in his working office. Do you know how to get there? The words of the President’s private secretary rang in my ears because he was getting on in years and was nearly deaf. I asked for his directions and remembered how and why I was a member of the current administration in Washington City. James Buchanan was elected in 1857 and now in 1860 it was clear that he would be a single term office holder. This was not his intent but the passage of the Nebraska bill in 1854 while he was serving as minister to Great Britain and its aftermath had taken its toll. The bill repealed the Missouri Compromise, augmented the intensity, and renewed the hatreds of the contest between the advocates of freedom and the friends of slavery.

Buchanan was admitted to the bar in 1818, and elected to the Pennsylvania State legislature. He served as a US House member from 1821 to 1831, then minister to Russia from 1832 to 1834. He was a US Senator from1834 to1845 until he agreed to become Secretary of State under President Polk. The Democratic convention of June, 1856, nominated James Buchanan and John C. Breckinridge, of Kentucky as Vice-President. Meanwhile the Republican convention assembled in Philadelphia and nominated John Fremont and William Dayton. Abraham Lincoln of Illinois received 110 votes for Vice-President. In the election of 1856, Buchanan carried nineteen states, and received 174 electoral votes. Fremont carried eleven states and Fillmore, the State of Maryland. The result of the election sent shock waves through the southern United States, for they saw a political party not two years old carry nearly all the free states, and come perilously close to electing its candidates.

In the State of South Carolina there was already a strong group of secessionists who began preparing for the undermining of the Republican candidates, whoever they may be four years later.

The common wisdom was to keep southern representatives in the White House, on the President’s cabinet and in the congress. The present cabinet contained the following southerners: Treasury, Howell Cobb of Georgia; War, John Floyd of Virginia; Interior, Jacob Thompson of Mississippi and Postmaster, Aaron Brown of Tennessee. Northern members were; Secretaries of State, Navy, and the Attorney General. It was with these three cabinet members and the President that I was summoned to meet with today. It was the turmoil in South Carolina and his disintegrating cabinet that would be the discussion of this meeting, I was sure. I reported directly to Navy Secretary Toucey, but on numerous occasions the President had sent me on fact finding missions across the country and the Atlantic ocean.

As I walked along the hallway, I remembered the missions that President Franklin Pierce and President-elect Buchanan had sent me on in December 1856. Our relations with the British Empire were strained to the breaking point over the US dismissal of the British minister to Washington. His offense had been the enlisting of American seamen on our soil to help England in her war with Russia. Good feelings had been restored by my mission. The British HMS Resoulte, had been abandoned so that an American whaler could find and tow it to Nantucket. I boarded HMS Resolute as her captain and sailed to England. Our government presented it to Queen Victoria and I met with her representative, Lord Napier, in a conciliatory manner.

The second mission involved the insurrection in the Utah Territory. On October 6, 1857, Brigham Young followers attacked 2500 troops under the command of Colonel Albert Johnston and forced them into Fort Bridger near Black’s Ford, Utah. The troops stayed the entire winter until an agreement was made in the Spring of 1858. I hand carried a letter from President Buchanan which offered pardons to all who would submit to federal authority. The process took nearly a year to work out and a year later federal troops left Utah.

Several other missions followed. The troubled Buchanan administration was forced to deal with the panic of 1857 caused by the over building of railroads into unsettled territories. Indian treaties were signed in Minnesota and Oregon which brought Statehood on May 11, 1858, for Minnesota and February of 1859, for Oregon. The Dred Scott Supreme Court decision meant that slave owners could move slaves from one state to another and I was sent from Minnesota, to Oregon and to Kansas with letters from the President. In each case the disputes were settled with neither side satisfied. Another dispute with England arose in the summer of 1859. It involved the ownership of San Juan island near the island of Vancouver which sat in the narrow channel between British Columbia and the US. I organized and sent a group of special envoys from President Buchanan to meet with Generals Harney and Scott, US commanders on San Juan and Washington Territory. The governor of British Columbia proved to be most helpful in the withdrawal of the British fleet.

The raid at Harper’s Ferry, the arrest by Colonel Robert E. Lee of John Brown and six surviving members of his party caused the President to consider how quickly the federal government could react. He had sent federal troops to assist the local Virginia militia in the arrest of Brown. Lee did not interfere with Virginia authorities when they tried Brown and the others and hanged them on December 2, 1859. I had just returned to Washington City from Richmond when the President asked me to monitor the Democratic National Convention in Charleston, SC. He reasoned that I had lived near Beaufort, South Carolina, still had a home there and would know my way around Charleston. I could send accurate reviews of the proceedings back to him via telegraph. On April 23, I telegraphed the following:

DEAR MR. PRESIDENT:

600 DELEGATES ARE ASSEMBLED. CALEB CUSHING, MASSACHUSETTS CHOSEN CHAIRMAN. CUSHING PRO-SLAVERY. SOUTHERN DELEGATES HAPPY. NORTHERN DELEGATES ANGRY. NOMINATION COMMITTEE

FORMED. MORE TOMORROW.

JASON CALDWELL

On April 24, I telegraphed the following:

DEAR MR. PRESIDENT:

TODAY HAS SEEN NO PROGRESS. JAMES A. BAYARD HAS CALLED FOR A CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION TO BE HELD IN RICHMOND.

MOTION HAS BEEN TABLED BY CHAIRMAN CUSHING. COMPROMISE SEEMS REMOTE. MORE TOMORROW.

JASON CALDWELL.

In two days, I sent the President the following telegram.

DEAR MR. PRESIDENT:

SOUTHERN FACTION TO WITHDRAW. REGULAR CONVENTION NOW MOVED TO BALTIMORE. I SHALL USE MY CONVENTION CREDENTIALS TO BOARD THE TRAIN. WILL REPORT WHEN I ARRIVE.

JASON CALDWELL

On June 18th I reported:

DEAR MR. PRESIDENT:

SOUTHERN DELEGATION REFUSED RECOGNITION. STEPHEN DOUGLAS OF ILLINOIS NOMINATED.

NEWSPAPERS REPORT BRECKINRIDGE NOMINATION FROM RICHMOND NATIONAL CONSTITUTION PARTY HAS NOMINATED JOHN BELL OF TENNESSEE. THIS WILL SCATTER THE VOTE FOR PRESIDENT AMONG: BELL, BRECKINRIDGE, DOUGLAS AND LINCOLN. AWAITING ORDERS.

JASON CALDWELL

The President suggested that we use the standard Navy intelligence coding for any communication sent through public means where several people would have read messages in order for them to be telegraphed long distances. For example, if the message began with Dear Mr. President, then he knew to contact Secretary Toucey in a few days for additional intelligence through the Office of Naval Affairs, Washington City. If the more formal heading of Office of the President was used then the telegram was information only and that I had not been detained by local authorities. If he did not hear from me by public telegraph or other means every 48 hours during a mission within the country, than I should be replaced by another intelligence agent acting as the envoy from him.

The train ride from Baltimore to Washington City had given me time to write my final report of the mission for the President. My summary was that there would be four distinct tickets on the fall ballot and I wrote:

1.   The Northern Democrats ( the Douglas and Johnson party) think that the people of each state and territory should settle the question of slavery; but pledge themselves to abide by the decision of the Supreme Court.

2.   The Southern Democrats (Breckinridge and Lane) declare that it is the right and duty of congress to protect slavery in the states and territories.

3.   The Republicans (Lincoln and Hamlin) assert that it is the right and duty of congress to forbid slavery anywhere under US protection.

4.   The American party (Bell and Everett) pledge to support the US constitution, the Union of States, and the enforcement of all laws.

All of the missions of the last three years were rerunning themselves in my mind as I rounded a corner in the hallway and there was the meeting room that the private secretary had directed me to. I knocked on the door and it was opened by Lewis Cass, Secretary of State. I entered and greeted the President warmly and nodded my head at the Secretary of the Navy, Isaac Toucey and Attorney General Jeremiah Black. The President was still holding my hand when he said,"Jason have you ever met Senator Douglas?"

"No, I have not met the Senator." In fact, I had never met Vice President Breckinridge either. The relationship between the President and Vice President had not been good and it was the President’s decision to exclude Mr. Breckinridge from all intelligence gathering. We walked across the President’s working office and stopped beside the Senator who was watching grounds keepers on the south lawn of the White House.

Stephen, let me introduce Admiral Caldwell, my National Affairs Advisor. I offered my hand and Senator Douglas grasped it and gave it the old vote for me handshake.

Thank you, Mr. President, I have read your most recent reports, Admiral, and I have several questions. The Senator’s words were rushed together and I strained to listen carefully.

First, I understand that you are from South Carolina. I thought, did he read my service record?

Yes, sir, I am. Now I wonder if he will think that I am a slave owner?

Can you tell me how you think the people of South Carolina are going to vote in this election?

Yes sir, I have briefed the President on how I think they will vote. My wife and I spent this summer at home in Beaufort and talked to a lot of folks who had listened to or read the President’s address of 1858 in Columbia. If he has shared this information with you then you already know. I was not sure in my own mind which Democratic candidate that the White House would end up supporting, but seeing that Senator Douglas was here - that meant something.

Yes, in your last report, I was surprised to learn that you thought I would get more votes in South Carolina than Breckinridge. Why is that?

The people of South Carolina that I talked to do not think Breckinridge has a chance to beat Lincoln and that you do. In fact, for the Union to stay together, you must defeat both Lincoln and Breckinridge. The voters of South Carolina want a resolution to the problem of what rights belong to the federal government and which belong to the individual states. The Supreme Court has ruled that plantation workers brought into this country from Africa have been purchased as property. And further, if the federal government takes away these rights then the owners should be compensated as suggested by the President in his address to them. My father owns a plantation near Datha Island and has two businesses in Beaufort. He depends on large numbers of workers for the plantation operation, these are a mixture of freed slaves and indentured servants. He uses freemen and indentured servants for his operations in Beaufort and Port Royal. After the President’s address in Columbia, my father released for payment, all of this indentured servants. But more importantly he has gone through the process of making freemen of all the slaves on his plantation. They are free to stay and work for wages or leave to seek work elsewhere.

I thought it was odd, a double standard no doubt, that the permanent ownership of workers was considered the work of the Devil; while people who purchased workers from China or Europe were considered nation builders. Senator Douglas and the President moved towards the other three men standing in front of chairs and I walked with them.

Please everyone sit down so that we can tell Admiral Caldwell why we have asked him here.

1

The White House

Working Office of the President

President Buchanan nodded towards Secretary of State Cass to open and begin the meeting. He cleared his throat and began. We have asked you gentlemen here today so that we can set a national goal for the country that will bring the states together and bind them up, if you will, into a stronger nation. We have until the election this fall to gather information that will insure that the voters are aware of what will happen in South Carolina and the other slave holding states if the Republican Party is elected. Mr. Lincoln and Mr. Hamlin have made it clear their stand on what must happen. Instead of finding common ground for agreement, they will set about changing federal law and the realignment of the Supreme Court if necessary. That leaves us with a divided Democratic party and the new American party. I think that we can discount the American party and we estimate that if the election were held today Bell would get less than 300,000 votes and would carry his home state and maybe one or two other states with less than twenty Electoral votes.

If we assume, the secretary continued, that the upcoming election will be a heated one, then more than five million votes will be cast. We also believe that Vice President Breckinridge is not popular and will carry only a few southern states with less than 700,000 votes in total. That leaves 3 million votes to be divided between Senator Douglas here and Mr. Lincoln. Tomorrow the President will announce that he supports Mr. Douglas. We know that this is late in the contest. We have watched the first Lincoln/ Douglas debate with interest and have concluded that in order to save the nation from dividing along the Mason Dixon Line we must try to support the Douglas election process with all the intelligence that we presently have and can gather in the time remaining before more debates with Lincoln.. .

He turned to the President and said, Mr. President, the floor is yours. James Buchanan rose from this chair and looked at the men around the table before speaking. Gentlemen, the nation needs you to stay in the harness and keep a watchful eye on those who would tear it apart. Tomorrow I will announce I am voting for Stephen A. Douglas because I think he is the best person to keep the nation together, who will respect the laws of the land and defend the constitution. We take a risk in doing this, I am so unpopular at the present time, that my announcement may actually take votes away from you Stephen. If you do not want White House support, just say so. He sat down and waited.

All eyes turned to Stephen A. Douglas for his reply. "I can not win without your support Mr. President and the intelligence to use against Mr. Lincoln in the upcoming debates. He uses his charming wit to deflect many of the things that I consider critical for the nation to know and understand about how the country came to this brink of self-destruction. For example, truth about John Brown’s raid should be made public but I do not have all the information."

The eye contact shifted back to the President. Buchanan answered that Secretary Toucey would release that file to him. But in the meantime, I could summerize what was in the file for Senator Douglas. When I was in Kansas, I began, I heard about John Brown, he lived in Ossawatomie, Kansas, at the time. He was a fanatic, who hated slavery so much that he believed that it was his mission in life to destroy it wherever it existed. He strove to enlist well-known abolitionists in his enterprise of invading the South and freeing the slaves, but none would join him. Men like Frederick Douglas of Kansas, a gifted Negro freeman, sought to dissuade Brown. Brown’s plan, I continued, was to invade Virginia with a small military force, and there call upon the slaves to rise in revolt. He believed that they would flock to him by the thousands, over come their masters and spread death and desolation throughout the South. Brown collected 21 men, including his three sons; Owen, Oliver and Watson. This group met secretly on the Maryland shore, opposite Harper’s Ferry, in October of last year. On Sunday, the 16th of the month, they crossed the railway bridge over the Potomac, seized the US arsenal, stopped the trains, captured a number of citizens, set free some slaves and held the town for more than 24 hours..

"Brown sent pickets out along the bridge and a puzzled Negro freeman, who did not understand, ventured too near the bridge and was shot and killed. The telegraph lines were then cut so that news of the murders could not reach law enforcement. The arms that they captured were handed out to several nearby plantations, in expectation that the slaves would rise up.

Instead, they informed the local militia, and the local militia informed Federal authorities. Before Colonel Robert E. Lee could get to the site, the local townsmen attacked the arsenal. It soon became apparent that the arsenal building, a storehouse really, could not be held against the locals. Some of Brown’s men tried to escape. One leaped into the Potomac and swam desperately for the Maryland shore. He was fired upon and wounded. Climbing upon a rock, he threw up his hands in surrender, but the local townsmen were not in the mood to receive surrender from those who had invaded their town and one of the locals drew a hand gun and killed him. No one ever reported this murder." .

Brown and his men then took refuge in an adjacent engine-house, with his wounded and captured slaves. He remained there for the next two days. On Tuesday, my Rapid Response troops arrived by train from Washington City. Lee should have taken command of the scene and controlled the locals. But instead, he held my marines and land troops in reserve and let the local Virginia State Militia lead the attack.. Brown would not surrender to the local militia and wanted to speak with someone from Washington City. Maybe he hoped to get national newspaper coverage of the raid talking to me, no one knows. Before his request was given to me the locals broke down the doors of the engine-house and the remaining band of men was overcome. Brown was slightly wounded, two of his sons killed, and others were wounded. The wounded died awaiting trial in Virginia because they were never treated for their wounds, these murders by neglect were never reported. Brown and six of his followers were hanged on December 2 ND by local authority. No federal charges were ever filed against John Brown. .

When Lincoln’s people make John Brown out to be a hero, I would let that ride, the President said. You can not change peoples minds about what slavery has done to this country. If you make John Brown out to be the murder that he was - then you lose votes to Lincoln. If you take the position that Brown was a hero - then you lose all the southern vote, they know better. It has been my position as President that slavery in the southern states is a legal position but not a moral one. The ownership of one person by another in any form is an abomination. Every President of the United States to date has either owned slaves, indentured servants or has defended the rights of United States citizens to do the same. Lincoln, if elected, will be the first to do none of these things. That is a powerful position, never mind it is not lawful. In the debates, you must ask Lincoln if he is willing to enforce the laws of this country or if he intends to change them so he does not have to. No matter how he answers, the people listening will understand your position. You have to take the matter of slavery off the table. You need to focus on the western territories, especially the Pacific coast. The South will die if it does not change, it has no manufacturing or foreign trade to speak of. The cotton and other agriculture products are traded with England, but that is all. England does not want to deal with the Federal establishment in Washington City, they want to deal directly with States like South Carolina. I do not blame them, this would save England from paying any Federal tax on trade. As President, I can not and will not allow individual states to deal with foreign governments, that is what the Federal Government is for. .

This is the basic difference between Federal and State Governments. I am sending Admiral Caldwell’s marines to South Carolina again this time with a Presidential Warrant. The Warrant is valid anywhere in the United States, but it states that any state or federal official who tries to interfere with the performance of his duties will be arrested, taken to the closest federal depot and detained for an indefinite period. The warrant is valid until I leave office in March of next year. I would encourage you to grant a similar warrant to Admiral Caldwell if you take the oath of office.

In four years of service for this President, I had never seen him so forceful and direct. He had stated the problem in a nut shell. But could he control the situation until March? I doubted that, a handful of Navy Marines could not control an entire section of the country. It was a fool’s errand that I would be asked to do and I would try to talk the President out of such action.

Well, gentlemen there is much work to be done before the election, the President said, Admiral Caldwell and I will adjourn to the Oval Office for the signing of the Warrant. You may remain and continue to ask questions if you like, Senator Douglas, these three cabinet members I trust with my life. He stood then and all men in the room rose to their feet and said in unison,

Thank you Mr. President. . .

2

The White House

The Oval Office

President Buchanan looked tired and drawn, the last four years had changed the man from when he had come to Washington City with his sister to occupy the White House and run the nation. I had met him shortly after his election in ‘56 and he had convinced me to accept a Presidential Warrant from Franklin Pierce. President Pierce had met with James Buchanan shortly after the election and confided in him what must be done with Great Britain and Queen Victoria. We must capture a British Man-of-war upon the high seas and tow it to the nearest US friendly port. We must also remove all of the sea men aboard and then claim that we found the ship afloat, abandoned. After resupply, a US Navy crew will sail the ship to South Hampton and return it to the Queen.

In the eyes of the world, the United States would become an important ally of Great Britain. Britain still considered the United States a complaining little nation where the minister from England to Washington City had every right to contract American seamen. It did not matter that sometimes kidnaping and pressing them into service aboard HMS ships was a more common practice. The message to the Queen’s Government was this - stop the unlawful pressing of seamen on our shores or we will make the entire British Navy disappear one ship at a time.

I received the Warrant from President Pierce in the Oval Office nearly four years ago. I remember thinking, we can not do this, can we? The Warrant was clear. I and the Navy marines serving under me would not be punished in any court within the United States. It did not cover what would happen if we were captured and returned to England. The United States Navy was not involved with this action. This was funded from the War Department’s special allocation funds and the Secretary of the Navy was not aware of the Warrant. I was not to use Navy vessels, funds, or intelligence office personal. I would be granted a reassignment from my position as Captain in Naval Intelligence, Navy Building, Washington City, to the White House.

A Presidential Warrant is not a voluntary request. If you refuse, you are arrested and are detained until the mission described in the warrant is complete. Many warrants are open ended and therefore, you could remain in custody forever. I blinked when I read the warrant, returned it to President Pierce and said, I will not fail you, Mr. President. I remember thinking God help me I will never see my home in South Carolina again.

The mission, if you could call that, began with my trying to find out where the pressed American seamen were being held. Sure, the Minister had been sent home, but his staff was still here using the British Embassy. If I could get myself and a few marines unnoticed into the bunch of held seamen, maybe there was hope. I left the Oval Office and walked to the Navy Building. Entering the side entrance across from the White House, I bumped into my aide, Sergeant Schneider. Tom what are you still doing here?

Waiting to talk to you, Sir. Your office is locked and a note says to go to the basement of the White House. What does that mean?

It means you and I have another mission Sergeant! Go across to the Hay-Adams and see how many of our special attachment marines you can find. Then have them change into civilian clothes and search the docks for any activity, you know, men coming and going at all hours, into rented warehouses or buildings. We are looking for the Americans that have been kidnaped by the Brits.

What do we do with them once we find them, Sir?

Nothing, we are going to join them.

Join them?

That is my plan Sergeant, I will let you know more when you find your mates.

Tom Schneider was a third generation Navy Marine. He stood well over six feet, six inches tall and weighed about twice my weight. He always protected my blind side on a mission. I could not count the number of times that he had saved my operation by his shear will. He carried a modified weapon first used by the English Navy which had 8 barrels that rotated into position to fire so fast that it was like having eight marines instead of one at your side. The British version used musket balls, was loaded with powder, wadding and so once fired it had to be reloaded, a rather slow process. British Marines could rake the top sails of enemy ships and drop any sharp shooter the captain had placed there. This was a terrible advantage in 1812 when the British sailed up the Potomac and burned the White House. Tom’s father had studied the weapon and proposed several changes. First the musket concept had to go, it could only be fired in a horizontal or higher position as the musket balls liked to roll down the barrels. He replaced the barrels with rifled barrels that used cartridges which eliminated loading powder, wadding and metal balls. Each barrel now had 6 cartridges in a rotating chamber, just like a hand revolver. Instead of the barrels rotating, like the English version, the American version had stationary barrels and rotating chambers. The problem with the American version was that all eight barrels fired at once. A normal seaman could not operate such a weapon unless it was mounted on deck. Tom Schneider, on the other hand, was no normal seaman. I had seen him hoist the weapon off the mount and sweep the top sides of more than one ship. And later, he was bringing several of the weapons on land missions as well. He fired 48 rounds while another marine loaded a second weapon so it could be handed back to him. .

Thomas Quinnlin Schneider was a one man wrecking machine.The other marines in my special attachment used new Henry repeating rifles and carried extra cartridges in a special pack arrangement. This allowed them to be mobile aboard a ship or like ten times their number on a land mission. The detachment was small, designed to be covert.

The covert part was going to be tested on this mission. Two days later Sergeant Schneider and Corporal Mason walked into the White House basement and found the little office in the corner which was marked Records and Receipts and dropped down into two chairs opposite my desk.

Sir, we think we have a handle on where the Brits are holding our seamen.

Thank you, Sergeant. Here is what I want you to do.

Two more days had passed before the Sergeant and Corporal could put our plan into action. It was simple if they could get it to work. After four days of watching the docks they had identified what they thought was the boss man and the strong arms that were bringing seamen to a warehouse on the Potomac. Tom and Sam Mason had followed the boss man to a boarding house on Maryland Avenue and had visited his room late at night. Tom had knocked on his room door and then shoved his giant fist through the side panel and threw open the door. The man was so terrified that he did not move. Tom shouted, You rotten limey son-of-a-whore, you have my brother locked up.

The man stammered, Wait a minute your worship, you must have me mistaken for someone else.

Not bloody likely. Get your ass out of that bed, so I can cut off your ears.

The man laid there frozen, so Tom grabbed the front of his night shirt and tore it from his body.

Now listen, you English bastard, here is what I can do for you. I will give you twenty gold double eagles for my brother’s release and I can tell you where you can press another ten seamen if you like. They are drunk nearly every night in a saloon near Lafayette Square. You can pick them up in the square when they pass out.What do you say to that, or do I have to kill you and go on to the next of you Brits?

Twenty double eagles? Who is this brother of yours? Why is he worth so much? Never mind, show me the gold!

I will give you two tonight and the other eighteen when we pick up the ten seamen and drag them down to the docks for you. When do you want to do this?