Transcript: NPR's Full Interview With Trump Lawyer Rudy Giuliani

In a wide-ranging interview Tuesday in New York with Morning Edition's Steve Inskeep and NPR Justice Correspondent Ryan Lucas, President Trump's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, talks about investigating Joe Biden, his work in Ukraine and whether Trump's actions regarding Ukraine were appropriate.

Steve Inskeep: It's good to talk with you. I will tell you where we're recording here, obviously. A little bit of this may go out tonight, but the main part will be on tomorrow morning, which is the morning of the expected acquittal of the president.

Rudy Giuliani: Well, I mean, it's going to be quite a 48 hours, right? You've got the State of the Union speech tonight, which is always interesting, a very interesting occasion. And then second, we have historic vote, right? How often does the Senate — this will be the third time the Senate has voted on impeachment, right?

Yeah, it's amazing.

And they acquitted Johnson, they acquitted Clinton. Yeah.

Well, let's talk about what we anticipate will be an acquittal. What message should the country take –

The country should get the message that — two messages. Well, I believe as his lawyer and his friend, the message they should get is, because I'm intimately aware of these, he did nothing wrong. The whole Ukrainian thing is completely mispresented. And the Democrats did do a good job of spinning it to "He's trying to hurt Joe Biden." It has nothing to do with Joe Biden. Believe it or not, it has do with me. I was sitting in my office on November-something, 28th or so, 2018. His name has now been revealed — a former assistant U.S. attorney of mine, former head of the criminal division and the president of a very, very distinguished investigatory firm — Bart Schwartz called me up and told me that he had a source, very reliable one, who was telling him very, very upsetting and very startling things. And because it came from this source, he took it more seriously. But he said he told me that there was Ukrainian interference in the election –

The 2016 election?

The 2016 election. There was Ukrainian interference in the election that will boggle the mind. He said it almost sounds like the Democrats are projecting what they did in Ukraine to Russia and blaming him for it. But there was complete involvement of the Ukrainian government from the president and all — and that Joe Biden played a material role in it. Originally, it was alleged that he helped to launder funds illegally to Hillary Clinton. I found no evidence of that, I should tell you. But then it was said to me that he — I'm not sure if Bart told me this or if he did it, maybe I didn't believe it. Then I met with the source after a week of due diligence, of checking him out and spent a lot of time with the source and with Bart. And the source told me, first of all, he said, I don't know this of my firsthand knowledge, very honest guy, I don't know it firsthand. But I go to Ukraine a lot. I spent a lot of time there. He had a bit of an investigatory background, which I can't — he had a bit of investigatory background, let me just say that. And he said, I've been told by many Ukrainians — and now it's so many I can't ignore it — a lot of things. Some of it I don't think is true, some of it I think is exaggerated, some of it I think is true, he said. But there's definitely evidence, solid evidence of Ukrainian involvement in the 2016 election with Democrats, specifically with Hillary Clinton's campaign. And go back and read the 2017 Politico article and say to yourself, why didn't I follow that?

Oh, that had to do with the Ukrainian involvement. Let me just ask, though, Mayor, about what the president eventually did.

So this starts as an investigation to obtain evidence to help defend President Trump against the false charges of collusion. And then it continues as an investigation to defend him against what immediately followed, impeachment. It has never, ever been a focus on Joe Biden. And it wasn't and I didn't go looking for it. He never went looking for it. It was given to me by Ukrainians who had been trying to give it to the United States for a year and been turned away by the FBI and by the Department of Justice and by the embassy in Ukraine.

Granting what you've said, Mayor, the president ultimately did make this phone call. And we spoke the other day on the program with Lamar Alexander, Republican senator from Tennessee, who's voting for acquittal. But says what the president did was inappropriate, that he did ask for Biden to be investigated and hopefully he won't do that again. Is Lamar Alexander right?

No, Lamar is wrong. And Lamar is a good friend of mine and he's a fine man. Except he doesn't know all the facts. He only knows half the facts. A lot of them distorted.

Meaning it was OK for the president to ask Joe Biden be investigated?

Right. Biden committed a very serious crime in Ukraine. At least there is overwhelming evidence of it.

You're referring to Biden's effort as vice president to have a prosecutor suspected of corruption –

Oh, more than that. Biden was, first of all, bribed by [Burisma owner Mykola] Zlochevsky to do that. Zlochevsky is the multi-billionaire, organized criminal who employed his son for five years and gave his son somewhere between $5 and $8 million. Some of it in laundered payments. Zlochevsky made a deal with Biden so that Biden would protect his company. And when —

Do you mean Hunter Biden on the board of Burisma?

He put Hunter Biden on