On Wednesday morning, Frank Fahrenkopf received a letter from the Biden
presidential campaign that ruined his day. Fahrenkopf is co-chair of the
Commission on Presidential Debates, which has produced 33 debates since
1988, the first election year it was in business.

He was planning on four more this year: three with Biden and Trump as
well as the quadrennial vice presidential debate. But the Biden campaign
told Fahrenkopf that the president would not be participating in any of
them.

Instead, the Biden campaign announced that it would negotiate with the
Trump campaign and individual media organizations to plan two debates
outside of the Commission’s process.

By the end of the day Biden and Trump were set to debate in June on CNN
and in September on ABC.

On this episode of Deep Dive, Fahrenkopf joins host and Playbook
co-author Ryan Lizza to discuss the fall-out from this decision,
including the roles of Biden, Trump, and Anita Dunn; why he thinks RFK
Jr. may have grounds for a lawsuit against CNN and what some of his
favorite behind-the-scenes stories are from his decades of producing
debates. 

Ryan Lizza is a Playbook co-author for POLITICO.
Frank Fahrenkopf is the co-chair of the Commission on Presidential
Debates. 
Kara Tabor is a producer for POLITICO audio. 
Alex Keeney is a senior producer for POLITICO audio.