In episode 87 of The Gradient Podcast, Daniel Bashir speaks to Professor Terry Winograd. Professor Winograd is Professor Emeritus of Computer Science at Stanford University. His research focuses on human-computer interaction design and the design of technologies for development. He founded the Stanford Human-Computer Interaction Group, where he directed the teaching programs and HCI research. He is also a founding faculty member of the Stanford d.school and a founding member and past president of Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility.Have suggestions for future podcast guests (or other feedback)? Let us know here or reach us at editor@thegradient.pubSubscribe to The Gradient Podcast:  Apple Podcasts  | Spotify | Pocket Casts | RSSFollow The Gradient on TwitterOutline:* (00:00) Intro* (03:00) Professor Winograd’s background* (05:10) At the MIT AI Lab* (05:45) The atmosphere in the MIT AI Lab, Minsky/Chomsky debates* (06:20) Blue-sky research, government funding for academic research* (10:10) Isolation and collaboration between research groups* (11:45) Phases in the development of ideas and how cross-disciplinary work fits in* (12:26) SHRDLU and the MIT AI Lab’s intellectual roots* (17:20) Early responses to SHRDLU: Minsky, Dreyfus, others* (20:55) How Prof. Winograd’s thinking about AI’s abilities and limitations evolved* (22:25) How this relates to current AI systems and discussions of intelligence* (23:47) Repetitive debates in AI, semantics and grounding* (27:00) The concept of investment, care, trust in human communication vs machine communication* (28:53) Projecting human-ness onto AI systems and non-human things and what this means for society* (31:30) Time after leaving MIT in 1973, time at Xerox PARC, how Winograd’s thinking evolved during this time* (38:28) What Does It Mean to Understand Language? Speech acts, commitments, and the grounding of language* (42:40) Reification of representations in science and ML* (46:15) LLMs, their training processes, and their behavior* (49:40) How do we coexist with systems that we don’t understand?* (51:20) Progress narratives in AI and human agency* (53:30) Transitioning to intelligence augmentation, founding the Stanford HCI group and d.school, advising Larry Page and Sergey Brin* (1:01:25) Chatbots and how we consume information* (1:06:52) Evolutions in journalism, progress in trust for modern AI systems* (1:09:18) Shifts in the social contract, from institutions to personalities* (1:12:05) AI and HCI in recent years* (1:17:05) Philosophy of design and the d.school* (1:21:20) Designing AI systems for people* (1:25:10) Prof. Winograd’s perspective on watermarking for detecting GPT outputs* (1:25:55) The politics of being a technologist* (1:30:10) Echos of the past in AI regulation and competition and learning from history* (1:32:34) OutroLinks:* Professor Winograd’s Homepage* Papers/topics discussed:* SHRDLU* Beyond Programming Languages* What Does It Mean to Understand Language?* The PageRank Citation Ranking* Stanford Digital Libraries project* Talk: My Politics as a Technologist Get full access to The Gradient at thegradientpub.substack.com/subscribe