Thank you to Chris who joins us for a second time on Rebranding Safety. Chris is an award-winning author and co-founder of Clearfield Group, guiding leaders through change and complexity. We catch up on the last 2 years and the landscape of complexity since his book 'Meltdown', co-authored by Andras Tilcsik, was released in 2018. We discuss leadership and 'the power of not knowing', implementing a culture and how it changes over time, being open and real about the levels of engagement and participation you're willing or able to take on, and the power of story telling. Enjoy, my fellow risk nerds..... (as coined by Chris!)