In this episode, Joe interviews Sarko Gergerian, MS, MHC, CARC: a police peer support, community outreach, and health-fitness officer; founding member of the Community and Law Enforcement Assisted Recovery Program (C.L.E.A.R.); and psychotherapist trained in ketamine- and MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. Any regular listener of the show should be familiar with how passionately Joe is against the drug war and the resulting policing of what many of us feel should be legal, so this in-person conversation with a police officer who seems to mostly be on our side is pretty refreshing to hear.  Gergerian discusses his entry into the force in his 30s, and what it was like to bring in a healthy “why is this illegal?” viewpoint on drug use and personal agency vs. the slow moving attitudes he saw in much of law enforcement. He talks about how working nightclub security taught him about safe spaces; the problems with officers not proactively moving on actionable information and building relationships with communities; and the very philosophy behind law enforcement: what do they hope to accomplish, do they want to make real change, and do they believe in the laws they’re enforcing?  And they discuss so much more: the need for diversity, cultural competency, and broadness in perspective; the criminalization of self-directed behavior; the effect critical incidents have on officers; drug war paranoia, legitimate concerns over hotlines and sensitive data, and psychedelic culture’s relationships with police; creating a culture of harm reduction within law enforcement, and what it might look like for police officers to receive psychedelic therapy. Click here to head to the show notes page.