Antiracist Practices in the Room: An Interview with Dr. Allen Lipscomb Curt and Katie speak with Dr. Allen Lipscomb, PsyD, LCSW about what therapists should consider in working with Black clients, common mistakes, and implementing anti-racist procedures into practice. What can therapists do better? Where is graduate education lacking? How do we respect and explore our Black client’s narratives? Who can work with Black clients? How can therapists help clients heal from race-based trauma? Interview with Dr. Allen Lipscomb, PsyD, LCSW Dr. Allen E. Lipscomb, PsyD, LCSW is an Associate Professor at Cal State University Northridge. Dr. Lipscomb received his PsyD from Ryokan College in Clinical Psychology and his Masters in Social Work from the University of Southern California. Dr. Lipscomb has also received additional certification through Cornell University in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion as well as a Certificate in Mixed-Methods Community-Based Research from the University of Michigan. Dr. Lipscomb is the creator and writer of the BRuH Approach to Therapy, specifically created for the healing of trauma in Black Men. He has taught courses in Social Work Practices with Urban Families, Psychosocial Assessing, Diagnosing, and Evaluation, Family Crisis Trauma and Grief, and many more classes. Dr. Lipscomb is a researcher in Black Male Grief and has contributed to numerous peer reviewed papers and textbooks. In this podcast episode we talk about working with Black male clients and antiracist best practices. We talked about Dr. Lipscomb’s BRuH model in a previous episode and thought it would be important to dig more deeply into his model and how he works with Black male clients. “You don’t have to understand something to hold space for something.” – Dr. Allen Lipscomb How can we do better with our Black male clients? Black male grief shows up in different ways than other client’s grief might show up. When assessing Black males for psychosis or conspiracy theories, ensure that you look at the context of their lived experience before determining psychosis The traumatic experiences of racialization, trauma, and mistreatment that many Black people can sound like lead to thoughts that might sound psychotic to an uneducated clinician. Listen to the client’s narratives. Question what the themes and patterns are and if the thought is maladaptive to their functioning and well-being. Utilize FIDO: frequency, intensity, duration and onset in questioning clients If a clinician is unsure if a thought is a conspiracy or legitimate threat, assess for how the client’s community is responding to the client’s narrative “I think we also get it wrong when we don't consider who we are as clinicians in the space with them” – Dr. Allen Lipscomb Ask clients how the session was for them. How was it for you to meet with me? Acknowledge your cultural limitations and create an invitation for the client to let you know when you can do better. Be mindful, Black male clients might be minimizing their experiences to be “less threatening.” This is the cultural congruency dichotomy that clients often have to take to avoid further potential trauma. What does it mean to be antiracist? “I'm okay with talking about [race when a therapist brings it up in session]. Because as a Black man, I don't know if you want to, or if you're able to talk about it. So, guess what, I am never going to bring up your whiteness in the space.” – Dr. Allen Lipscomb Clients might be resistant to bringing up a clinician’s whiteness in the space. Black clients might not think that a white clinician has the capability or desire to talk about race. It is the responsibility of the clinician to actively establish the openness of the space to discuss race and the client’s lived experience. This should be a continuous conversation that is led by therapists, to make the topic open until it feels naturally open. It’s affirming to have someone who is white in a position of power to say to me