Ben Staley returns to the podcast for the first time in a while. Last time we saw Ben was in Death Valley February 2021, the time before that was pre-COVID, also in Death Valley, November 2019. We have all grown and changed since then. Michael and Mark chat with Ben about religion, and what a cool guy Jesus was, or maybe was, and conclude that if you just act like him you would be a pretty good person. Late we discuss "the art of making art", training one's creative muscle and habits, and how — when you are a creative person — every single one of your friends appears to be more productive and motivates you to work harder. We speak about POISON, the binding of which Ben attended made a short video. It was wonderful to fellowship with Ben for a few days; he is incredibly inspiring and we might work harder when motivated by his example.Links mentioned in this episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BupZyoDNntc@staleyhttps://www.nonprophet.media/shop/p/poison-sermons-on-sufferinghttps://www.benstaley.com/starboundStarbound on Vimeo:https://vimeo.com/285356395