In which John Heilemann talks with renowned epidemiologist Dr Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota and a former member of Joe Biden's Covid-19 presidential transition advisory board. Heilemann and Osterholm discuss the past, present, and future of the pandemic as the Delta variant lays waste to the sense, just weeks ago, that America had gained the upper hand against Covid; the ways politicians have misjudged the virus and mismanaged our response to it; the Biden administration's scramble to employ tougher tactics to incentivize vaccination and quash the anti-mask crusade; the dangers posed by alarmingly low rates of vaccination in many countries around the world; and the likelihood of a new variant emerging that is even worse than Delta. Osterholm also reflects on his reputation in some quarters as Dr. Doom, and suggests one reason for continued optimism about the future no matter how grim the news on the Covid front may be: dogs. (Duh.) See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.