73. Turning Work into Play

FromPeople I (Mostly) Admire

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73. Turning Work into Play

FromPeople I (Mostly) Admire

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Length:

52 minutes

Released:

Apr 30, 2022

Format:

Podcast episode

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How psychologist Dan Gilbert went from high school dropout to Harvard professor, found the secret of joy, and inspired Steve Levitt's divorce.

Released:

Apr 30, 2022

Format:

Podcast episode

Titles in the series (100)

Steve Levitt, the iconoclastic University of Chicago economist and co-author of the Freakonomics book series, tracks down other high achievers and asks questions that only he would think to ask. Guests include all-time Jeopardy! champion Ken Jennings, YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki, WNBA champion Sue Bird, Operation Warp Speed chief Moncef Slaoui, and neuroscientist/actress Mayim Bialik. People I (Mostly) Admire is a production of the Freakonomics Radio Network.

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Introducing “People I (Mostly) Admire”: Steve Levitt has spent decades as an academic economist, “studying strange phenomena and human behavior in weird circumstances.” Now he’s turning his curiosity to something new: interviewing some of the most interesting, unorthodox people around — from actresses to athletes, authors to inventors. Here is a preview of Levitt’s new podcast, which premieres August 21st. New episodes every two weeks. “People I (Mostly) Admire” is a production of the Freakonomics Radio Network. by People I (Mostly) Admire
5 min listen
7. Caverly Morgan: "I Am Not This Voice. I Am Not This Narrative.": She showed up late and confused to her first silent retreat, but Caverly Morgan eventually trained for eight years in silence at a Zen monastery. Now her mindfulness-education program Peace in Schools is part of the high-school curriculum in Portland, Ore. Steve Levitt finds out what daily life is like in a silent monastery, why teens find it easier than adults to learn meditation, and what happy children can teach their parents. by People I (Mostly) Admire
39 min listen
19. Marina Nitze: “If You Googled ‘Business Efficiency Consultant,’ I Was the Only Result.”: At 27— and without a college degree — she was named chief technology officer of the Department of Veterans Affairs. Today, Marina Nitze is trying to reform the foster care system. She tells Steve how she hacked the V.A.’s bureaucracy, opens up about her struggle with Type 1 diabetes, and explains how she was building websites for soap opera stars when she was just 12 years old. by People I (Mostly) Admire
38 min listen
Steve Levitt: “I'm Not as Childlike as I'd Like to Be” (Bonus Episode): Steve Levitt has so far occupied the interviewer chair on this show, but in a special live event — recorded over Zoom and presented by WNYC and the Greene Space — the microphone is turned toward him. His Freakonomics friend and co-author Stephen Dubner checks in on the wisdom Levitt has extracted from his interviews, finds out why Levitt is happiest when angering everyone across the political spectrum, and asks Levitt why he ends every interview with the same question. by People I (Mostly) Admire
38 min listen
2. Mayim Bialik: “I Started Crying When I Realized How Beautiful the Universe Is”: She’s best known for playing neurobiologist Amy Farrah Fowler on The Big Bang Theory, but the award-winning actress has a rich life outside of her acting career, as a teacher, mother — and a real-life neuroscientist. Steve Levitt tries to learn more about this one-time academic and Hollywood non-conformist, who is both very similar to him and also quite his opposite. by People I (Mostly) Admire
45 min listen
5. Susan Wojcicki: “Hey, Let’s Go Buy YouTube!”: She was the sixteenth employee at Google — a company once based in her garage — and now she's the C.E.O. of its best-known subsidiary, YouTube. But despite being one of the most powerful people in the tech industry, few outside of Silicon Valley know the name Susan Wojcicki. Levitt talks with her about the early days of Google, how her background in economics shapes the company's products, and why YouTube's success has created a range of unforeseen and serious issues. by People I (Mostly) Admire
31 min listen
6. Nathan Myhrvold: “I Am Interested in Lots of Things, and That's Actually a Bad Strategy”: He graduated high school at 14, and by 23 had several graduate degrees and was a research assistant with Stephen Hawking. He became the first chief technology officer at Microsoft (without having ever studied computer science) and then started a company focused on big questions — like how to provide the world with clean energy and how to optimize pizza-baking. Find out what makes Nathan Myhrvold’s fertile mind tick, and which of his many ideas Steve Levitt likes the most. by People I (Mostly) Admire
48 min listen
13. Yul Kwon: “Don't Try to Change Yourself All at Once.”: He has been a lawyer, an instructor at the F.B.I. Academy, the owner of a frozen-yogurt chain, and a winner of the TV show Survivor. Today, Kwon works at Google, where he helped build tools to track the spread of COVID-19. But things haven’t always come easily for him. Steve Levitt talks to Kwon about his debilitating childhood anxieties, his compulsion to choose the hardest path in life, and how Kwon used his obsession with game theory to stage a come-from-behind victory on Survivor. by People I (Mostly) Admire
35 min listen
Nathan Myhrvold: “I Am Interested in Lots of Things, and That's Actually a Bad Strategy.” (Episode 6 Rebroadcast): He graduated high school at 14, and by 23 had several graduate degrees and was a research assistant with Stephen Hawking. He became the first chief technology officer at Microsoft (without having ever studied computer science) and then started a company focused on big questions — like how to provide the world with clean energy and how to optimize pizza-baking. Find out what makes Nathan Myhrvold’s fertile mind tick, and which of his many ideas Steve Levitt likes the most. by People I (Mostly) Admire
50 min listen
20. John Donohue: “I'm Frequently Called a Treasonous Enemy of the Constitution.”: He’s a law professor with a Ph.D. in economics and a tendency for getting into fervid academic debates. Over 20 years ago, he and Steve began studying the impact of legalized abortion on crime. John and Steve talk about guns, the death penalty, the heat they took from their joint research, and why it’s frustratingly difficult to prove truth in the social sciences. by People I (Mostly) Admire
37 min listen
28. Professor Carl Hart Argues All Drugs Should Be Legal — Can He Convince Steve?: As a neuroscientist and psychology professor at Columbia University who studies the immediate and long-term effects of illicit substances, Carl Hart believes that all drugs — including heroin, methamphetamines, and cocaine — should be legalized. Steve talks to Carl about his new book, Drug Use for Grown-Ups, and Carl tells Steve why decriminalizing drugs is as American as apple pie. by People I (Mostly) Admire
45 min listen
24. Amaryllis Fox: “What Does This New Version of Mutually Assured Destruction Look Like?”: She spent nearly a decade as an undercover C.I.A. operative working to prevent terrorism. More recently, she hosted The Business of Drugs on Netflix. Amaryllis Fox — now Kennedy — explains why intelligence work requires empathy, and she soothes Steve’s fears about weapons of mass destruction. by People I (Mostly) Admire
58 min listen
8. Peter Attia: “I Definitely Lost a Lot of IQ Points That Day”: He’s been an engineer, a surgeon, a management consultant, and even a boxer. Now he’s a physician focused on the science of longevity. Peter Attia talks with Steve Levitt about the problem with immortality, what’s missing from our Covid response, and why nicotine is underrated. by People I (Mostly) Admire
38 min listen
9. Moncef Slaoui: "It’s Unfortunate That It Takes a Crisis for This to Happen": Born in Morocco and raised mostly by a single mother, Moncef Slaoui is now one of the world’s most influential scientists. As the head of Operation Warp Speed — the U.S. government’s Covid-19 vaccine program — Slaoui has overseen the development and distribution of a new vaccine at a pace once deemed impossible. Steve Levitt finds out how the latest generation of vaccines improve on their predecessors, why “educated intuition” is important in innovation, and what we can do to be better prepared for future pandemics. by People I (Mostly) Admire
37 min listen
23. Greg Norman & Mark Broadie: Why Golf Beats an Orgasm and Why Data Beats Everything: Steve Levitt is obsessed with golf — and he’s pretty good at it too. As a thinly-veiled ploy to improve his own game, Steve talks to two titans of the sport: Greg “The Shark” Norman, who was the world’s top-ranked golfer for more than six years; and Mark Broadie, a Columbia professor whose data analysis changed how pros play the game. by People I (Mostly) Admire
43 min listen
14. Yul Kwon (Part 2): “Hey, Do You Have Any Bright Ideas?”: He’s so fascinating that Steve Levitt brought him back for a second conversation. Yul Kwon currently works at Google, but he’s been a lawyer, political organizer, government regulator, organ donation activist, and Survivor winner. Steve asks Yul why he’s so altruistic, how Google and Apple are helping track COVID-19, and whether the best way to pick a president might be a reality show. by People I (Mostly) Admire
29 min listen
4. Ken Jennings: “Don’t Neglect the Thing That Makes You Weird”: It was only in his late twenties that America’s favorite brainiac began to seriously embrace his love of trivia. Now he holds the “Greatest of All Time” title on Jeopardy! Steve Levitt digs into how he trained for the show, what it means to have a "geographic memory," and why we lie to our children. by People I (Mostly) Admire
42 min listen
11. Paul Romer: “I Figured Out How to Get Myself Fired From the World Bank.”: For many economists — Steve Levitt included — there is perhaps no greater inspiration than Paul Romer, the now-Nobel laureate who at a young age redefined the discipline and has maintained a passion for introducing new ideas to staid debates. Levitt finds out what makes Romer a serial “quitter,” why you can’t manufacture big ideas, and what happened when Romer tried to start a charter city. by People I (Mostly) Admire
34 min listen
17. Emily Oster: “I Am a Woman Who Is Prominently Discussing Vaginas.”: In addition to publishing best-selling books about pregnancy and child-rearing, Emily Oster is a respected economist at Brown University. Over the course of the pandemic, she’s become the primary collector of data about Covid-19 in schools. Steve and Emily discuss how she became an advocate for school reopening, how economists think differently from the average person, and whether pregnant women really need to avoid coffee. by People I (Mostly) Admire
42 min listen
1. Steven Pinker: "I Manage My Controversy Portfolio Carefully”: By cataloging the steady march of human progress, the Harvard psychologist and linguist has become a very public intellectual. But the self-declared “polite Canadian” has managed to enrage people on opposite ends of the political spectrum. Steve Levitt tries to understand why. by People I (Mostly) Admire
42 min listen
3. Kerwin Charles: “One Does Not Know Where an Insight Will Come From”: The dean of Yale’s School of Management grew up in a small village in Guyana. During his unlikely journey, he has researched video-gaming habits, communicable disease, and why so many African-Americans haven’t had the kind of success he’s had. Steve Levitt talks to Charles about his parents’ encouragement, his love of Sports Illustrated, and how he talks to his American-born kids about the complicated history of Blackness in America. by People I (Mostly) Admire
39 min listen
15. Tim Harford: “If You Can Make Sure You're Not An Idiot, You've Done Well.”: He’s a former World Bank economist who became a prolific journalist and the author of one of Steve Levitt’s favorite books, The Undercover Economist. Tim Harford lives in England, where he’s made it his mission to help the public understand statistics. In their conversation, Steve gives Tim some feedback on his new book, The Data Detective, contemplates if it’s possible to tell great stories with data, and Tim explains how making mistakes can be fun. by People I (Mostly) Admire
43 min listen
18. Robert Sapolsky: “I Don’t Think We Have Any Free Will Whatsoever.”: He’s one of the world’s leading neuroscientists, with a focus on the physiological effects of stress. (For years, he spent his summers in Kenya, alone except for the baboons he was observing.) Steve asks Robert why we value human life over animals, why he’s lost faith in the criminal-justice system, and how to look casual when you’re about to blow-dart a very large and potentially unhappy primate. by People I (Mostly) Admire
42 min listen
27. Daniel Kahneman on Why Our Judgment is Flawed — and What to Do About It: Nobel laureate, best-selling author, and groundbreaking psychologist Daniel Kahneman is also a friend and former business partner of Steve’s. In discussing Danny’s new book Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment, the two spar over inconsistencies in criminal sentencing and Danny tells Steve that “Your attitude is unusual” — no surprise there. by People I (Mostly) Admire
44 min listen
31. Peter Leeson on Why Trial-by-Fire Wasn’t Barbaric and Why Pirates Were Democratic: He’s an economist who studies even weirder things than Steve. They discuss whether economics is the best of the social sciences, and why it’s a good idea to get a tattoo of a demand curve on your bicep. by People I (Mostly) Admire
46 min listen
29. Bruce Friedrich Thinks There’s a Better Way to Eat Meat: Levitt rarely interviews advocates, but the founder of the Good Food Institute is different. Once an outspoken — and sometimes outlandish — animal-rights activist, Bruce has come to believe that market-driven innovation and scientific advancement are the best ways to reduce global meat consumption. Steve and Bruce talk about the negative externalities of factory-farmed meat, and why Bruce gave up antics like streaking at Buckingham Palace. by People I (Mostly) Admire
46 min listen
21. Pete Docter: “What If Monsters Really Do Exist?”: He’s the chief creative officer of Pixar, and the Academy Award-winning director of Soul, Inside Out, Up, and Monsters, Inc. Pete Docter and Steve talk about Pixar’s scrappy beginnings, why it costs $200 million to make an animated film, and the movie moment that changed Steve’s life. by People I (Mostly) Admire
44 min listen
12. Sue Bird: “You Have to Pay the Superstars.”: She is one of the best basketball players ever. She’s won multiple championships, including four Olympic gold medals and four W.N.B.A. titles — the most recent in 2020, just before turning 40. She also helped negotiate a landmark contract for the league’s players. Sue Bird tells Steve Levitt the untold truth about clutch players, her thoughts about the pay gap between male and female athletes, and what it means to be part of the first gay couple in ESPN’s The Body Issue. by People I (Mostly) Admire
40 min listen
38. Sendhil Mullainathan Explains How to Generate an Idea a Minute (Part 2): Steve continues his conversation with his good friend, MacArthur “Genius Grant” recipient, and fellow University of Chicago economist. Sendhil breaks down the hypothesis of his book Scarcity, explains why machines aren’t competition for human intelligence, and tells Steve why it’s important to appreciate other people’s good ideas before developing your own. by People I (Mostly) Admire
37 min listen
26. Memory Champion Nelson Dellis Helps Steve Train His Brain: He’s one of the world’s leading competitors, having won four U.S. memory tournaments and holding the record for most names memorized in 15 minutes (235!). But Nelson Dellis claims he was born with an average memory and that anyone can learn his tricks. Steve gives Nelson’s techniques a shot, without much hope — and is surprised by the result. by People I (Mostly) Admire
36 min listen

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130. Is Our Concept of Freedom All Wrong?: The economist Joseph Stiglitz has devoted his life to exposing the limits of markets. He tells Steve about winning an argument with fellow Nobel laureate Milton Friedman, why small governments don’t lead to more freedom, and why he’s not afraid to be an advocate. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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129. How to Fix Medical Research: Monica Bertagnolli went from a childhood on a cattle ranch to a career as a surgeon to a top post in the Biden administration. As director of the National Institutes of Health, she’s working to improve the way we find new treatments — despite regulatory constraints and tight budgets. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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EXTRA: Remembering Daniel Kahneman: Nobel laureate, bestselling author, and groundbreaking psychologist Daniel Kahneman died in March. In 2021 he talked with Steve Levitt — his friend and former business partner — about his book "Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment" (cowritten with Olivier Sibony and Cass Sunstein) and much more. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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128. Are Our Tools Becoming Part of Us?: Google researcher Blaise Agüera y Arcas spends his work days developing artificial intelligence models and his free time conducting surveys for fun. He tells Steve how he designed an algorithm for the U.S. Navy at 14, how he discovered the truth about printing-press pioneer Johannes Gutenberg, and when A.I. first blew his mind. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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127. Rajiv Shah Never Wastes a Crisis: After Haiti’s devastating earthquake, Rajiv Shah headed the largest humanitarian effort in U.S. history. As chief economist of the Gates Foundation he tried to immunize almost a billion children. He tells Steve why it’s important to take big gambles, follow the data, and own up to your mistakes. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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126. How to Have Great Conversations: "The Power of Habit" author Charles Duhigg wrote his new book in an attempt to learn how to communicate better. Steve shares how the book helped him understand his own conversational weaknesses. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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125. Is Gynecology the Best Innovation Ever?: Cat Bohannon’s new book puts female anatomy at the center of human evolution. She tells Steve why it takes us so long to give birth, what breast milk is really for, and why the human reproductive system is a flaming pile of garbage. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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124. Daron Acemoglu on Economics, Politics, and Power: Economist Daron Acemoglu likes to tackle big questions. He tells Steve how colonialism still affects us today, who benefits from new technology, and why democracy wasn’t always a sure thing. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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123. Walt Hickey Wants to Track Your Eyeballs: Journalist Walt Hickey uses data to understand how culture works. He and Steve talk about why China hasn’t produced any hit movies yet and how he got his own avatar in the Madden NFL video game. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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122. Arnold Schwarzenegger Has Some Advice for You: Arnold Schwarzenegger has been a bodybuilder, an actor, a governor, and, now, an author. He tells Steve how he’s managed to succeed in so many fields — and what to do when people throw eggs at you. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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121. Exploring Physics, from Eggshells to Oceans: Physicist Helen Czerski loves to explain how the world works. She talks with Steve about studying bubbles, setting off explosives, and how ocean waves have changed the course of history. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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120. Werner Herzog Thinks His Films Are a Distraction: The filmmaker doesn’t want to be known only for his movies. He tells Steve why he considers himself a writer first, how it feels to be recognized for his role in "The Mandalorian," and why he once worked as a rodeo clown. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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119. Higher Education Is Broken. Can It Be Fixed?: Economist Michael D. Smith says universities are scrambling to protect a status quo that deserves to die. He tells Steve why the current system is unsustainable, and what’s at stake if nothing changes. by People I (Mostly) Admire
47 min listen
118. “My God, This Is a Transformative Power”: Computer scientist Fei-Fei Li had a wild idea: download one billion images from the internet and teach a computer to recognize them. She ended up advancing the state of artificial intelligence — and she hopes that will turn out to be a good thing for humanity. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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117. Nate Silver Says We're Bad at Making Predictions: Data scientist Nate Silver gained attention for his election predictions. But even the best prognosticators get it wrong sometimes. He talks to Steve about making good decisions with data, why he’d rather write a newsletter than an academic paper, and how online poker led him to the world of politics. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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116. Abraham Verghese Thinks Medicine Can Do Better: Abraham Verghese is a physician and a best-selling author — in that order, he says. He explains the difference between curing and healing, and tells Steve why doctors should spend more time with patients and less with electronic health records. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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BONUS: Nobel Laureate Claudia Goldin on "Greedy Work" and the Wage Gap: Claudia Goldin is the newest winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics. Steve spoke to her in 2021 about how inflexible jobs and family responsibilities make it harder for women to earn wages equal to their male counterparts. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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115. The Future of Therapy Is Psychedelic: For 37 years, Rick Doblin has been pushing the F.D.A. to approve treating post-traumatic stress disorder with MDMA, better known as Ecstasy. He tells Steve why he persisted for so long, why he doesn’t like calling drug use “recreational,” and what he learned from his pet wolf. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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114. Is Perfectionism Ruining Your Life?: Psychologist Thomas Curran argues that perfectionism isn’t about high standards — it’s about never being enough. He explains how the drive to be perfect is harming education, the economy, and our mental health. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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113. Do We Have Evidence of Alien Life?: Avi Loeb is a Harvard astronomer who argues that we’ve already encountered extraterrestrial technology. His approach to the search for interstellar objects is scientific, but how plausible is his argument? by People I (Mostly) Admire
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112. Reading Dostoevsky Behind Bars: Reginald Dwayne Betts spent more than eight years in prison. Today he's a Yale Law graduate, a MacArthur Fellow, and a poet. His nonprofit works to build libraries in prisons so that more incarcerated people can find hope. by People I (Mostly) Admire
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73. Turning Work into Play

73. Turning Work into Play

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