Robby speaks with Kelly Sutton, Software Engineer at Gusto. They discuss how to deal with technical debt from the pre-product/market fit era, the benefits of monoliths and knowing when to begin abstracting to micro-services, and the challenges of keeping Ruby on Rails applications up-to-date. Kelly also gives advice for developers who want to convince stakeholders to invest in refactoring projects – a common challenge.Helpful LinksFollow Kelly on TwitterKelly's website[Book] Seeing like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed by James C. ScottTalk on Desirable TestsSubscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.