Should spies be allowed to break the law while undercover? What should the relationship between government and intelligence look like? Do we overestimate or underestimate the power and reach of Russia’s FSB and China’s intelligence service?

On today’s special episode of Leading, Rory and Alastair are joined by Eliza Manningham-Buller and John Sawers to discuss what it’s really like to lead MI5 and MI6, respectively.

This episode was recorded before the IS-Khorasan attack in Moscow.

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