Alex and Benjamin discuss one is on Lord Shang, a Chinese political theorist and minister associated with the development of legalism. Unlike most ancient political theorists, Shang Yang denies the possibility of a politics based on virtue. He therefore denies the possibility that the state can be ruled by a virtuous elite. But this does not lead him to argue for democracy. On the contrary, he argues that sages, intellectuals, and other talkers encourage lawbreaking and spread disorder. He therefore recommends the state heavily disincentivize these activities.