#085: A 2019 debate between ROP's Dave Chapman and Jo Mirenda of the Organic Trade Association, moderated by Jack Kittredge, longtime editor of The Natural Farmer. Hydroponics, the allowance of glyphosate under plastic weed mats on instant-organic berry farms, and confined animal feeding operations are all discussed, along with proposed solutions such as a continuous improvement clause.Dave Chapman is the co-founder of Real Organic Project, a founding member of Vermont Organic Farmers, and the owner of Longwind Farm in Thetford, Vermont. Jo (Johanna) Mirenda is the Farm Policy Director at the Organic Trade Association, where she serves as lead technical expert on issues related to crop and livestock materials and standards. Previously, she served as Technical Director for the Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI).To watch a video version of this podcast with access to the full transcript and links relevant to our conversation, please visit:https://www.realorganicproject.org/ROP-debates-the-organic-trade-association-episode-eighty-fiveThe Real Organic Podcast is hosted by Dave Chapman and Linley Dixon, engineered by Brandon StCyr, and edited and produced by Jenny Prince.The Real Organic Project is a farmer-led movement working towards certifying 1,000 farms across the United States this year. Our add-on food label distinguishes soil-grown fruits and vegetables from hydroponically-raised produce, and pasture-raised meat, milk, and eggs from products harvested from animals in horrific confinement (CAFOs - confined animal feeding operations).To find a Real Organic farm near you, please visit:https://www.realorganicproject.org/farmsWe believe that the organic standards, with their focus on soil health, biodiversity, and animal welfare were written as they should be, but that the current lack of enforcement of those standards is jeopardizing the ability for small farms who adhere to the law to stay in business. The lack of enforcement is also jeopardizing the overall health of the customers who support the organic movement; customers who are not getting what they pay for at market but still paying a premium price. And the lack of enforcement is jeopardizing the very cycles (water, air, nutrients) that Earth relies upon to provide us all with a place to live, by pushing extractive, chemical agriculture to the forefront.If you like what you hear and are feeling inspired, we would love for you to join our movement by becoming one of our 1,000  Real Friends:https://www.realorganicproject.org/real-organic-friends/To read our weekly newsletter (which might just be the most forwarded newsletter on the internet!) and get firsthand news about what's happening with organic food, farming and policy, please subscribe here:https://www.realorganicproject.org/email/'s