We can create top 10 lists and we can count vulns that we find with scanners and pen tests, but those aren't effective metrics for understanding and improving an appsec program. So, what should we focus on? How do we avoid the trap of focusing on the metrics that are easy to gather and shift to metrics that have clear ways that teams can influence them?   Segment resources - https://www.philvenables.com/post/10-fundamental-but-really-hard-security-metrics - https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/devops-sre/using-the-four-keys-to-measure-your-devops-performance   Visit https://www.securityweekly.com/asw for all the latest episodes! Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/asw193