In which John Heilemann talks with Gary Ginsberg, the author of First Friends: The Powerful, Unsung (And Unelected) People Who Shaped Our Presidents. Heilemann and Ginsberg discuss the bestselling book, Ginsberg’s innovative approach to writing about the presidency (via the presidents’ relationships with their best friends), and how his role as corporate consiglieri to powerful men, such as JFK Jr., Rupert Murdoch, and former Time Warner CEO Jeff Bewkes, helped him find this new angle. Ginsberg also dishes on Murdoch’s behind-the-scenes dalliance with Barack Obama in the run-up to the 2008 election, and he discusses how Donald Trump’s friendlessness affected his presidency. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.