One reason that the nomination of Kamala Harris is so fascinating is that it comes at a time when we’re completely rethinking criminal justice in the United States. And Kamala Harris was a prosecutor. From her time as San Francisco district attorney and as California’s attorney general, critics argue that she locked up parents of truant children, left a potentially innocent man on death row, and didn’t support a measure mandating statewide standards for police body cameras. She caught a lot of flack over her criminal justice record during the Democratic primary, especially from the progressive wing of the party. Even so, Kamala Harris labels herself a “progressive prosecutor.” She’s far from alone. But what does that label even really mean?

On today’s show, you’ll meet two women who call themselves progressive prosecutors, and hear what it means to reform the system from the inside, while becoming the face of a different kind of culture war.

First: St. Louis Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner, who was reelected in a landslide victory during this month’s primary, championing police accountability and diversion programs to incarceration. But her progressive approach has made her a target for the Republican establishment. Missouri’s Republican governor Mike Parson is trying to decrease her power. And now she has been rendered a TV villain by pro-Trump pundits for prosecuting RNC stars Mark and Patricia McCloskey, who went viral after brandishing weapons at Black Lives Matter protesters in June.

Next up, you’ll meet Satana Deberry. When she took the oath of office as district attorney of Durham County, North Carolina, in January 2019, it was a momentous occasion—for the city of Durham and for her, as a Black woman elected to an office historically held by white men, whose “tough on crime” policies have devastated communities of color for decades. She ran her campaign being vocal about the over-policing of Black and Brown folks, promising sweeping reform. Now, more than a year into office, she faces the complicated realities of seeking to reform a deeply flawed criminal justice system and support a community ravaged by gun violence. She’s learning that implementing change will be harder than she could have anticipated.