Welcome everyone to episode 205 of the Everyone’s Agnostic podcast. I’m Cass Midgley. Today, Dr. Bob Pondillo  I interview Anne Marie Zanzal. Anne-Marie Zanzal has a Master of Divinity from Yale Divinity School and a graduate certificate in Women's Leadership from Hartford Seminary.   She is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ and has worked as a church pastor and as a chaplain in both hospitals and hospices. She is a Compassionate Bereavement Provider certified by the MISS Foundation. Anne-Marie is an informed and entertaining speaker and group leader about coming out late in life, end of life issues and hospice, and women and divorce.  You can find Anne-Marie at www.annemariezanal.com, on Facebook, Instagram, Linkedin, or email her at revzanzal@gmail.com. We taped this conversation on May 12th, 2018. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, we offer these podcasts freely. And your support truly makes a difference. You can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge a monthly donation through Patreon. that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast,  or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. Credits: "Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU The music behind it is "Never Know" by Jack JohnsonThe segue music on this episode is "Release It" by Afro Celt Sound System, one of Raymond's favorite bands. Thanks for listening, and be a yes-sayer to what is. Ivan Coyote's "Hats Off" to Femmes If you've listened to this podcast, you know that Bob and I can very critical of bad religion, especially bad Christianity. We would like nothing more than for it to eliminated and something we look back on someday soon as the silly phase in human history where we believed that shit. However, in the meantime, we occasionally like to highlight when Christianity is done right. In the four years we've been on the air, we've had numerous brave Christian guests in here who have learned to navigate this faith that most commonly corrupts otherwise good people with its fear-ridden, insecurity-appealling dogma that brings out the worst in its adherents. But the Christians we've had on here, like David Dark, Tony Woodall, Stan Mitchell, George Cunningham, Mary and Julia in episodes 4 and 5, Jim Henderson, Benjamin Corey, Jennifer Crumpton, Becky Garrison, Geoff Little, Krista Tippet, Brian Quincy Newcomb, Angela Pancella, William Paul Young, Angela Cantorna, Charlie Smith, and many others who have retained portions of their previous held beliefs while rejecting others, they were willing to bring their stories in here and showed us that there are ways to practice Christianity that truly make the world a better place and don't turn them into assholes. That's certainly the case with our guest today, Anne Marie. In a small way, this is us adopting the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mindset. As we oil the wheels of deconversion and #emptythepews, we also applaud those who, while practicing some form of faith, have not forfeited their intelligence and agency to a false, insecure, jealous, and small God. They celebrate rather than shame what it means to be human. Unlike the majority of their fellow Christians, they do not bury their heads in the sand, and they say yes to what is. Okay, I found a YouTube of someone reciting the poem to which Anne Marie just referred.  The voice here is apparently a lesbian that presents as masculine, perhaps even trans, it's not clear and I'm reluctant to presume but do so to give you a picture of what's happening because it is relevant. I highly value empathy and compassion, and often th